Thanks, Amy. I miss this kind of discussion. I miss show having enough substance to warrant this kind of discussion.

And yes, -t, when Cas with borrowed grace was able to take out demon Dean, then it seems a bit wrong when Cas' own grace wasn't stronger against MOC Dean. That confrontation would have been interesting to watch.

I don't know whether anyone here follows the Js offscreen, but Jared bailed on the Rome and the Australian con, pleading exhaustion. If you've been aware of his and Jensen's Always Keep Fighting fundraiser and awareness campaign, it's coming back to Jared manyfold. I'm a little unsettled by such openness, but if it helps people reach out when they need help, then that's a good thing.

and scaring away the target demographic is an actual issue, because this is a product, first and foremost, *not* pure art.

The thing is, I don't think today's young male target audience would be scared away by one-sided slashy subtext between Cas and Dean, let alone the two occasionally having scenes showing camaraderie and philia. The latter certainly isn't keeping that demographic from paying to see Dom Toretto and Brian O'Connor in the Fast & Furious movies by the tens of millions. The pressure to scrub that Season 6-8 dynamic out of the show is coming from someone else's reservations—whether those belong to Carver, Singer, CW Network execs, or Jensen himself I don't know.

I was a little startled to see Jared's tweets, too, Bev. I hope he's okay.

The pressure to scrub that Season 6-8 dynamic out of the show is coming from someone else's reservations—whether those belong to Carver, Singer, CW Network execs, or Jensen himself I don't know.

But that's also valid. They don't have to make the product you want. And on top of that, whatever subtext exists between Cas and Dean is only part of it -- the show is different on almost every level than it was in the first five seasons, at least for me, in look, feel, scripts, all of it.

But that's also valid. They don't have to make the product you want.

I still have the right to complain about the changes they've made that aren't to my liking, and point out that "what would the children think?" is a fallacious excuse rather than a valid rationale for the change. I'm very much a proponent of the if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it philosophy, and given that ratings actually improved in the wake of Season 8, it's clear that featuring Dean and Cas' relationship as important didn't drive male 18-25 viewers away in droves.

I think I'm coming from a different point of view, though -- I don't see a lot less of the subtext between them now than I ever did, so that's not primarily what I'm thinking of when I say the show has changed.

Also, who's saying "what would the children think?" I'm asking honestly. Is that a reason being given?

I still think it goes back to the network execs, primarily Pedowitz, who is reported to be a big fan of the show. From what I've read, he's a force behind the "straight, male, action" direction of the show, and also behind the rationale that *never resolving an issue* is the type of "conflict" that keeps 18-34 year old guys tuning in. Whether or not the target demographic would accept or respond positively to m/m awareness of any degree is, at this point, moot, because the network says so.

While the creator was at the wheel, the show had to fight each year for whatever creative freedom it was able to win from Dawn Ostroff, and everybody held their breath each season to find out if the show had been renewed. I know fans struggled with some of the storylines in the first four or five seasons. But at least there was some resolution to the storylines the show moved through, there was an adherence to established canon, and there was a throughline, an arc for the series as a whole.

I find it ironic, now when the writers seem to be pulling old scripts out of the closet and shaking out a few of the wrinkles before wearing them, in no particular sense-making order, the network is saying they'll be renewed as long as the cast wants to keep going.

That sort of makes sense to me, though, Bev. I can't imagine wanting to write about the same two people for ten years plus. And trying to a) keep it fresh and b) adhere to established canon. No matter what writers might want to do, restrictions in terms of budget and actor availability are always going to play into the story arcs. And when you're writing something serially -- i.e. posting episodes before the whole season is written -- you're bound to write yourself into a corner now and then.

I can't imagine working that way, because I've gone back to change things in the earliest chapters of a book after I've finished a rough draft. On TV, though, when that ship sails, it's gone.

I don't want to come across as a complete apologist, either -- I think what I decided was that my feelings for the original canon and the first five seasons are a separate thing from my fondness for the show and the cast now. Now, it's about loyalty and pretty faces and probably a certain stubbornness -- I'm definitely a completist when I can be. But the show I LOVED with my whole heart is not coming back, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time on wishing it would, because it gets me nowhere, and makes me angry and bitter on top of it.

Well actually, I'm sort of in the same place regarding completism and loyalty. I do find I'm much less invested in the show--as far as folding laundry or balancing the checkbook while it's on. I used to watch while it aired and record it to immediately rewatch. Now I always watch delayed, and several times I've forgotten it was on, and it was a day or two before I got around to watching the ep.

I guess I'm still watching for the pretty, because I'm certainly not invested in either the characters or the story. And yes, I resent that, and I miss it, even while I acknowlege you're correct that it's nearly impossible to reinvent storylines and adhere to previous canon.

I guess I need to work on divorcing S1-6 from following seasons as a different show.

Well, you don't need to! I'm just trying to save my emotional energy for other things, I guess. It's also been a really weird year for me -- I'm watching next to no TV because I don't have a chance to, and I'm not missing it as much as I imagined. I think I divorced myself from fandom, in a sense, without really meaning to, but it's not been a bad thing for me.