I am not talking about lurkers, actually.

No, I know. I was comparing it to a previous situation that arose here, that seems to me to have some analogies.

So you want me to stand up and say it? You can't see the statement for what it is? You need me to be offended for it to be offensive? Well, there you go. I'm offended. Put it on the record.

I do think a statement that would offend no one doesn't count as an offensive statement, so I guess it'd be necessary that it would offend someone. (This is, of course, a stricter standard than to say that it did offend someone, for just the distinction you've made here. I've mentioned previously that I've found the misogynist conversation of some of my work colleagues to be offensive, even though there were no women present at the time.

I personally wince a bit at the "Republican intellectual" comment. My political views are, I think, more right-wing than the centre of gravity on this board, because I'm essentially pro-free markets. Beyond that, I personally don't have much to say about that particular example, beyond that it's not one I would use myself.

I'm not sure the issue is that clear cut.

It may be the sort of thing that has to find its balance.

One of the problems with offense being the clear bright line that ita sees, is that people can take offense at anything. It's not reasonable. It's an emotional response.

People can take offense that I say "Jesus Fucking Christ," or "Sweet Zombie Jesus" or "God Damn It!" or at my opinion on abortion or the death penalty or the Catholic Church or the Reagan administration.

There's a reason why the boundary for Free Speech isn't set at: Other People Might Be Offended.

In our very particular culture here we value civility very highly. It's one of the things which has allowed our board to survive over a long period. However, prizing civility so highly has had (I think) an unintended effect. Which is that it has made the discourse here blander, because there's an emphasis on being inoffensive. And I (like some others) do feel like people are quick to take offense.

I think some posters who were more tart or saucy or abrasive have drifted off (not flounced) because of our Buffista emphasis on civility. On balance the board is still here but some of that liveliness is gone.

Snark is cutting. You don't want your compeers to bleed, but...I don't know. When I did construction work people bled every day and you didn't make a stink about it. I do try to emphasize to Matilda that every boo boo isn't a National emergency. If I made a stink about every time a broad, generalizing condemnation of "MEN!" got made on the board it would grind to a halt.

I grew up as a Military Brat and as Amy notes, the jokes about "Military Intelligence" started by people who were in the military.

For ita my use of the word "gypped" was a very clear offense worth calling out. For my part, I don't want to give potential, theoretical offense that much power. Because I think it hems things in too much.

The balance on that, however, is simply that I'm going to offend her sometimes. But I'm also conscious that it bugs her and that factors into my usage.

In our very particular culture here we value civility very highly

Fuck civility. I'm talking about respect.

the jokes about "Military Intelligence" started by people who were in the military

Call me a nigga and I will remove your testicles. Don't say I didn't give you a heads up.

I get that Hec doesn't care if he offends me. I get that erika doesn't care. I get that Connie doesn't care. Trust me, it's duly noted. But that doesn't mean I'm going to shut up, and that doesn't mean I'm not going to stand up for people who aren't as mouthy as I am.

I get that Hec doesn't care if he offends me. I get that erika doesn't care. I get that Connie doesn't care.

as a response to:

But I'm also conscious that it bugs her and that factors into my usage.

ita, as your friend, I am imploring you: Think about this. Take some time to cool off. Because I am 99.99% sure that what you heard is not what they said.

I'm not heated, but thanks. Hec and I have discussed gyp at length. My offense at the term isn't enough for him to stop using it entirely. He's prioritised as he wishes to, and that's entirely his call. I'm calm about that. erika says I shouldn't be offended, and so does Connie. They've made their positions clear.

Did you see erika or Connie agree that other people weren't overreacting or misinterpreting the comments that set off this conversation? Did you see Hec say (a while back) that the idea that I'm offended is too theoretical for him to censor or limit the expressiveness of his lexicon? What am I misreading?

You know, if you said to a group of our mutual friends: "Karl doesn't care if I'm offended," I would not be just hurt, I'd be fucking gutted.

And if you ever thought that I would direct racial epithets of any sort at you, I would wonder just what I had done to make you think me so callous.

So, tell me what i'm mis-reading, please?

I didn't say that you don't care if I was offended. I said that Hec prioritised other things over my feelings about gyp, and that erika and Connie thought I was overreacting. Am I interpreting things wrongly?

The nigga extrapolation was just to illustrate that because a group uses something to describe itself, it in no way makes it okay for other people to describe them. I apologise that that wasn't clear. I figured it was.

OK. I've got more thoughts than I have words, at the moment, so I'm going to retreat from the field until things start sounding more coherent in my head.

This place is hard for me to be in, sometimes. But even when I am not here, I am thankful for my Buffistas, especially the Bitches.

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you who celebrate tomorrow. And peace, love and happy Thursday to those of you who don't.

Fuck civility. I'm talking about respect.

I respect you. I just disagree with your opinion on "gypped."

I said that Hec prioritised other things over my feelings about gyp... Am I interpreting things wrongly?

That's fair. And on my end, I'll note that even long after the "gypped" conversation I can send ita a link to something back channel that I think she'd like. We don't have to be in perfect agreement to still be in the same tribe.

I'm okay with our relationship as it is. Some of it's more history than intimacy or agreement but we're not that far apart on most issues of importance. I can look up at the card in our nerd hole and know she contributed to our car, and she can look up to the Legolas knives on her wall and know I had something to do with that.

For the record, my flounce earlier was a melodramatic faux-flounce.

I just came back from cooking. I am covered in butter, pieces of pig, hen and veg. So this is my messy, short and final opinion.

I respect and enjoy most snark. I respect Buffistas. If something I say offends someone, they have every right to tell me.

You cannot ever know what will or will not offend someone. I try to use my version of common sense. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes, I choose not to agree and continue my behavior.

To wit: I refuse not to cuss like a fuckin' sailor in motherfucking Bitches. It's Bitches. But if someone were to ask me to temper it in another thread, I would try very hard to so.

I still like you Bitches. I am going to go baste a damn hen.