Yeah, I don't have a lot of wisdom here other than, yeah, you go in, and you do that, every day. The fact that you don't give up on them is what makes it work, because they've done this to other people before and those other people wrote them off.

Even you messing up yourself is okay. They already know you mess up, but the more you can model messing up...and then pulling yourself together and getting on with it...the more they can see and learn from it.

The thing is, the drama is the work. It's just how it goes. All of the stuff, and the life skills and all of that, it comes along with, but it's a long road.

I've got a kid right now who is dreaming about pursuing a doctorate in piano performance. I wrestled with him doing scales for years. And then his big brother left and his mom got beat nearly to death by her boyfriend so they took him out of her care and put him in the care of his aunt...who was the meth dealer to begin with. And so at eighth grade, he looked like his life was completely a wreck. He was never going to learn life skills and he was never going anywhere but into those swells of addiction.

But he's getting ready to graduate high school now, and he talks to me on facebook all the time (after no contact for nearly five years) and he's making hard life decisions in the right direction.

He's had a lot of other influences in his life too, so I'm not saying it was all me. But I taught him how to play piano, and I'm damned proud of him. Although I didn't think I was going to be when he was stealing money from the youth center to smoke weed in front of the church work teams.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, all you can be is who you are, every day, every day. And your workers have the opportunity to learn from that or not, but how you treat them in and out is the important bit today. You never know where life will take Angry Girl down the road, and you want to be part of that direction.

Whoever said it upthread is also right that her squabble with you is a positive thing because it reflects her burgeoning sense of ownership. Encourage that. Let her do it, and get it wrong. And continue to let her know you have high expectations for her.

And yeah. Give yourself a break. Get some rest. Come back fresh. It's a hard thing you're trying to do.

God, Liese. I need you in my ear like Leverage every day. If I ever get the chance, I am so coming to visit and volunteer. Any creative ideas on positive motivation/reinforcement?

Eight years on, one of my students/best friends from PC has gotten back in touch on fb, and she's in school, married, a mom, and not dead, which is pretty awesome.

I think I need to write "the drama is the work" on my bathroom mirror.

{{smonster}} sorry you had such a shit day. Liese is wise. I hope you have a restful night, and get that adult beverage goin'. If you need to vent, just call or text.

{{Zenkitty}}, much coping ~ma to you.

Maria, so goo to see you around these parts! I was watching the saga on FB, and I'm glad that you got some rest.

I left work at 2:30, because I got four hours sleep in three nights, came home, crashed hard. I woke up, and I have to do some work tonight, even though all I want to do is sleep more.

Liese is wise. And experienced.

It makes me wonder about my niece. She has few life skills, and I can't understand how she came to be like that. She's living in a lovely house that her mom rents to her at half the fair market rent, she has a great job, she makes more at 27 than a whole lot of people with families ever make, she's smart and talented and pretty, and has at least two family members who will always be there for her. And she is one of the most self-entitled, self-involved, arrogant, angry, temper-tantrum-throwing people I've ever met. I know she had a rough time of it for a while, but I honestly don't know where this out-of-control attitude comes from, and I don't know how to deal with it. The way she treats my sister makes me so angry, I can't think straight. She should be seeing a therapist, and so should my sister, but I know damn well neither of them will. I can't be their therapist, couldn't even if I was one. My sister deals with it by making excuses for her and letting it all go as if nothing happened, trying to placate and soothe her, because she doesn't want any conflict, and I understand that - I don't want conflict with her either, she can be really hateful. But I don't think it's helping K. in the long run, to know that no matter what she says or does, her mom will pat her head and tell her everything's okay, and no one will ever say, "that was a shitty thing you did/said, and no matter how upset you were, there's no excuse for it." K. responds with, "oh, I was just upset, I didn't mean it! why are you making such a big deal of it?" or some variation of "it was your fault, you made me act that way." I'm afraid I'm going to have to be the one who does call her out on it, if anyone does, and I don't want to. I'm not her parent, and I'm not likely to be very good at it, either.

"the drama is the work"

That is so beautifully true.

My sister deals with it by making excuses for her and letting it all go as if nothing happened, trying to placate and soothe her, because she doesn't want any conflict, and I understand that - I don't want conflict with her either, she can be really hateful. But I don't think it's helping K. in the long run

I am a therapist, but you have the answer right there.

It strikes me as the most ironic of human comedies that the clients I see who are the angriest, most entitled, least able to navigate their lives healthfully are the ones who were the most indulged. Squishy boundaries are nobody's friend!

It's sad really, that in trying to give them the best, parents are actually taking something very important away from their kids.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to be the one who does call her out on it, if anyone does, and I don't want to.

Please excuse the unsolicited advice. I'm a noodge because I care.

Say what you need/want to say for yourself. What can you share that, when you are done, you can walk away feeling like you've done your best and then let it go.

It may have a profound effect on your niece, or it won't, but you will have relief. Either way, you win.

Squishy boundaries are nobody's friend!

Also beautifully true.

Zen, bonny is wise. Say what you need to say, and let go of the results (SPOILER: that's the hardest part).

It strikes me as the most ironic of human comedies that the clients I see who are the angriest, most entitled, least able to navigate their lives healthfully are the ones who were the most indulged.

Over time, I've realized that spoiled is quite literal.

I've been that person, Zen.

I've also ended a couple of relationships. One self-involved brat continued in that path for a while afterward and then someone else may have slapped him and the double whammy woke him up, because he got help and got his life more straightened out than it was. It's not great, and probably won't ever be, but it's better. But he can't see that my reaction had a part in that, and he still resents me. We don't speak. I regret that part, but I don't regret speaking up, because one, it was killing me to watch and say nothing, and two, I know it made a difference, even if he doesn't, and I'm glad for that.

The other instance, she blew up in my face, stormed out, and I've never seen her again. She gave every mutual aquaintance an earful about how awful I was to her, and when asked, I've given a thumbnail of my side. It's cost some intimacy, but most of the friendships survived. I knew it was likely a lost cause going in, and did it anyway.

I've also held my tongue and just distanced myself rather than engage.

It's always a case-by-case, and if you go in knowing you're probably going to lose the relationship, any good that comes out of the confrontation is a pleasant surprise.

I know it made a difference, even if he doesn't, and I'm glad for that.

I applaud your courage and would lay money on the fact that you DID have an impact.

A favorite minister of mine says,"Sometimes, death IS the healing."

The relationships may end, but the courage it takes to be authentic lives on.