I've joined a church and am now trying to put aside my family's secular approach (it's all about the presents! spending! eating! getting drunk) and approach it as a religious holiday. The fact that I spend Christmas with my family and don't really want to go through the hassle that would be involved in going to church in their area makes it harder.

Toddson, I'm from a non-Christian family too (well, my sister and her family go to church, but not my parents) so I can relate to that. I work really hard to prioritise the religious aspects of the holiday, as the rest doesn't make much sense for me (except seeing family, which is great, but my father regularly goes on vacation at that time of year anyway). This year we're driving to my mother's to get there in the afternoon on Christmas day, so we can get to midnight mass before and I can still get enough sleep to cope with the drive. If I can balance seeing family with religious stuff and ignore the rest, I am a happy bunny.

Oh, well I do have to hear The Pogues doing 'Fairytale of New York'* so I can announce that Christmas has started. Hey, we all have our little traditions.

*Edit: on the radio. On the iPod does not work so well.

Bad? I don't think so. Unenlightened, unintelligent, gullible, and ignorant.

I'm just preoccupied with "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds." I've never encountered that as prevalent, although I certainly have encountered individuals with that PoV, just like I've encountered Christians who were sure Gandhi went to hell.

I'm just preoccupied with "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds." I've never encountered that as prevalent,

I'd say the first part (myth and supersition) is prevalent. The second part? Less so, IME.

I've encountered Christians who were sure Gandhi went to hell.

Oh? You've met my family?

You may consider prayer, the idea of Christ as God, and the Holy Spirit to be "magical," but the people who believe in them do not consider them to be "magic," and to suggest that is just as disrespectful as Christians expecting atheists to get on board with the godhood of Christ.

So (and I ask this as a person who was raised by atheists, and is thus somewhat sympathetic to their position), do you wish the atheists around you to lie about their world view? Because that's what it sounds like. To my parents, prayer and divinity are magical thinking, unsupported by evidence and science.

Bad? I don't think so. Unenlightened, unintelligent, gullible, and ignorant. They definitely treated me with less respect after they found out. Like my judgement could no longer be reliable.

Yup. Very much this. Not like they suddenly thought I was bad, but I'd suddenly shifted in their perspective from "regular person" to "possibly slow, with high likelihood of stealthy assholeishness."

And, damn, now I want some hot buttered--well, hot buttered anything in the appropriate liquor family is fine, I'm not fussy as long as it's hot and buttered--and I desperately need to hear "Fairytale of New York." I'm still feeling like I somehow missed out on Thanksgiving because although there was plenty of stuffing, we missed both radio playings of "Alice's Restaurant."

I've encountered Christians who were sure Gandhi went to hell.

Well, if Hell is other people, and Hindhus believe in reincarnation...

So (and I ask this as a person who was raised by atheists, and is thus somewhat sympathetic to their position), do you wish the atheists around you to lie about their world view? Because that's what it sounds like. To my parents, prayer and divinity are magical thinking, unsupported by evidence and science.

This is my question too. Is there any way to talk about atheism honestly without "disrespecting" religion at some level?

Re: myths. Here is a conversation we had in class today (keep in mind, I teach 8th grade):

Me (in response to a somewhat unrelated comment): So, S, you'd be the one to see all the little 5 year olds lined up to talk to Santa at the mall and tell them, aren't you?

R (another student): Yeah, S, you'd go up and tell them Santa isn't real!

P (another student...delivered with total sincerity and a look of supreme sadness): What? R, you just broke my heart. What are you saying about Santa?

R: Uhh........

I started laughing out loud. P totally had him going and it was wonderful.

Also, and totally unrelatedly, for crap's sake, people, there are a solid dozen people hovering over these awesome boots; please, someone, pony up a bid.

(Not my boots, though my sale--I'm putting up a bunch of Deb Grabien's stuff up to help her out, and it's depressing and inexpressibly irritating to see how much utterly gorgeous couture is going for pennies or completely unsold. Stoopid non-bidding watchers. I hates 'em, I does.)

And, damn, now I want some hot buttered

If you haven't tried it with bourbon, I Highly Encourage It. Of course, I'm totally biased WRT bourbon vs. rum.

"Alice's Restaurant."

I hadn't even realized that I hadn't listened to it. Of course, Thanksgiving was a little weird this year.

Not like they suddenly thought I was bad, but I'd suddenly shifted in their perspective from "regular person" to "possibly slow, with high likelihood of stealthy assholeishness."

I feel really weird and defensive when I talk about going to church. Especially b/c I totally still struggle with the concept of Jesus as Savior, etc.