And, damn, now I want some hot buttered

If you haven't tried it with bourbon, I Highly Encourage It. Of course, I'm totally biased WRT bourbon vs. rum.

"Alice's Restaurant."

I hadn't even realized that I hadn't listened to it. Of course, Thanksgiving was a little weird this year.

Not like they suddenly thought I was bad, but I'd suddenly shifted in their perspective from "regular person" to "possibly slow, with high likelihood of stealthy assholeishness."

I feel really weird and defensive when I talk about going to church. Especially b/c I totally still struggle with the concept of Jesus as Savior, etc.

This is my question too. Is there any way to talk about atheism honestly without "disrespecting" religion at some level?

That's been a problem, simply by stating my position people assume I'm looking down on them. Therefore, I just try to avoid the subject.

So (and I ask this as a person who was raised by atheists, and is thus somewhat sympathetic to their position), do you wish the atheists around you to lie about their world view? Because that's what it sounds like. To my parents, prayer and divinity are magical thinking, unsupported by evidence and science.

No, I wouldn't expect them to lie about it, but I would also not expect them to tell someone that they are wrong without being asked. That being said, I expect that if an atheist says "I'm an atheist", they are often flooded with questions and people trying to tell them they are wrong.

Life experiences like mine either make you really devout or really skeptical.(I am the reason the skeptical bench has wheelchair seating, I think.) But when I was eighteen or nineteen, I had that college freshman obnoxious atheist phase(and in my case I was, absolutely a snarling, judgmental pain in the butt on the subject...it was probably good for someone else's faith that I don't believe that anymore, but can anyone believe anything like a college freshman? Even one that went to kind of a bad college like me.) Now, I'm not sure...there are things I like and don't about a lot of spiritual traditions but I can't say I really have one myself. I mean, I grew up Lutheran, but to be a hundred percent honest, about the only thing I'm sure that means is that we were NOT Catholic. Even though it's not that different,just, like, shorter, and less stained glass. But I still feel sad, looking back, about the suspicion that made me freak out when my stepdad wanted to take us to Christmas mass...I I mean, his family is full of wacky Catholics that don't exactly make it not look scary, and he was trying to horn in a bit and create Insta-Family, but I just repeated knee-jerk prejudice and I wish I hadn't.(That's not the reason he went insane, though) I have "FairyTale of New York" cause it's in The Wire soundtrack.

And I personally don't care about calling it magic, and don't expect anyone to lie. It's not my favorite phrasing, but I am totally not the boss of exactly what words other people choose to express what they think and believe. (Though, wouldn't that be an awesome job? I would kick ass at that job! As would most Buffistas.)

Except for the tiny, tiny handful of people who truly do think that all religious people are deluded, mentally deficient, criminally insane, child abusers or all four at once. Those people are encouraged to lie, so that I don't reach through the Internets and punch them in the head.

No, I wouldn't expect them to lie about it, but I would also not expect them to tell someone that they are wrong without being asked. That being said, I expect that if an atheist says "I'm an atheist", they are often flooded with questions and people trying to tell them they are wrong.

In my experience, they don't even need to say it to hear *unprompted* that they're wrong, and this is living in one of the more secular bubbles in the US.

In other parts of the country, like Texas (where my husband's aunt disowned her brothers for being the Wrong Sort of Christian), I expect it's worse.

I wouldn't expect them to lie about it, but I would also not expect them to tell someone that they are wrong without being asked.

But there's a double-standard there, isn't there? Saying "Prayer is magical thinking" is interpreted as disrespect towards religion, but saying "Prayer is real" is accepted as a neutral statement of religious belief.

That's been a problem, simply by stating my position people assume I'm looking down on them. Therefore, I just try to avoid the subject.

Ayup.

JZ, what's the calf circumfrence on those boots? Those boots are hot -- I'm a 9, but I bet I could wear 'em with chunky cocks.

In my experience, they don't even need to say it to hear *unprompted* that they're wrong, and this is living in one of the more secular bubbles in the US.

Whoops. Yeah, I got that even in "we don't talk about personal things"-riffic MN.

But there's a double-standard there, isn't there? Saying "Prayer is magical thinking" is interpreted as disrespect towards religion, but saying "Prayer is real" is accepted as a neutral statement of religious belief.

I think Dawkins and others have made this exact point, with varying levels of frustration.

(Ahahaha. I've just realized I'm a culturally atheist vague theist. There are so many levels of hard to explain there.)