I hadn't subscribed to this thread, so I missed your post about Joss exiting The Nevers, msbelle. I just happened upon it, while looking at Deadline to see where The West Wing will land when it leaves Netflix on Christmas Eve (answer: HBO Max).

Anyhow, I kind don't know what to make of Joss's wordy statement, in light of the terse one from HBO.

“We have parted ways with Joss Whedon. We remain excited about the future of The Nevers and look forward to its premiere in the summer of 2021,” a HBO spokeswoman said in a statement Wednesday.

“This year of unprecedented challenges has impacted my life and perspective in ways I could never have imagined, and while developing and producing The Nevers has been a joyful experience, I realize that the level of commitment required moving forward, combined with the physical challenges of making such a huge show during a global pandemic, is more than I can handle without the work beginning to suffer,” Whedon noted.

“I am genuinely exhausted, and am stepping back to martial my energy towards my own life, which is also at the brink of exciting change. I am deeply proud of the work we have done; I’m grateful to all my extraordinary cast and collaborators, and to HBO for the opportunity to shape yet another strange world. The Nevers is a true labor of love, but after two plus years of labor, love is about all I have to offer. It will never fade,” he added.

I feel like the HBO statement would be a little less curt, were this just a case of Joss being exhausted. I'm wondering if it's more a case of him being exhausting.

The situation is really complicated.

At first, Zack Snyder was in the doghouse at Warner, and Joss was brought on to fix Justice League, and also Joss was also given an HBO series by Warner. Then JL kind of tanked at the box office. And then, later Warner was bought out by AT&T. And then suddenly, Zack Snyder was back in Warner’s graces, and given Justice League: The Director’s Cut at HBO. And about the same time, Ray Fisher started talking about Joss’s abusive, and possibly actionable behavior on the set of Justice League. And then Joss was shown the door at HBO and Warner.

And also, also, in the background, there have been very vague rumors that Joss and Kevin Feige have been talking about bringing him back to direct another Marvel movie (specifically, The Fantastic Four), which might be the “exciting change” that Joss is talking about.

I’m actually kind of confident that Feige, if hires Joss again, could clamp down on Joss’s behavior so that it wouldn’t be a problem going forward. I’m also confident that the first thing that went through Joss’s mind when he heard The Fantastic Four was, ”exactly how can I fuck with Sue and Reed’s marriage?”

I’m actually kind of confident that Feige, if hires Joss again, could clamp down on Joss’s behavior so that it wouldn’t be a problem going forward.

Fuck that. How about just hiring someone who is not an abusive asshole? There have to be other directors out there. At this point, Joss at the helm is not a selling point for moviegoers (as opposed to before when we all would have gone to see his movies because he directed them) He no longer has the Midas touch, so why put the movie at risk?

The rumors are very vague at this point, and it’s possible that Feige could come to the same conclusion that you did. It’s also possible that they’ve never been talking at all.

Thanks Tom. Was Snyder in the doghouse? I thought Joss took over, because Snyder's daughter died.

It's all such a mess. The last I'd read (in September [link] [link] ), Warner said Ray Fisher wouldn't cooperate with the investigator, but Fisher said he wanted representation present when he did (which he should have). I know Jason Momoa backed up Fisher about treatment on the set. (https://ew.com/movies/jason-momoa-justice-league-mistreatment/ ).

It seems like Joss has turned into a Buffyverse villain.

I remember though that Jeff Pruitt (old BtVS stunt coordinator) tried cozy up to Fisher, who retweeted him. I hope someone told Fisher that Pruitt isn't necessarily a good guy, just because he doesn't like Joss. He acted like an utter ass on the Bronze. When he had his public shitfit, Pruitt posted that he had a fungus in his toilet that he (Pruitt) had named after SMG. He also posted his bizarre "A Knight's Parable." I think Allyson covered some of this in her book.

The oldest Bronze VIP archives are gone [link] , but I found a copy/paste of Pruitt's "Knight's Parable" here: [link]

Edit: someone archived the web page where Pruitt originally published it. You can find it on the Wayback Machine: [link]

Whatever reason Snyder had for leaving the project, once he was gone, Warner seemed intent on delivering a completely different movie than Snyder’s original vision. They certainly could have just finished shooting Snyder’s script for a lot less money.

Plus, it always was suspect to me that Joss was hired to make a Batgirl movie, and then he just happened to be perfectly placed to take over Justice League on a moment’s notice, and then the original Batgirl project was abandoned.

Also, I had the timing of events a little wrong above. The rumors that Joss was talking to Marvel were in April, and Fisher started talking about Joss in July, and the investigation was in August. The Marvel rumors are still just very vague rumors.

Also, also, AT&T is in the middle of cleaning house at Warner, DC, and HBO. They have been firing lots and lots of people.

From what I've heard (no idea if it was correct or not), Snyder was already on the outs with Warner Bros. over BvS, which underperformed compared to the recent Superman and Batman solo movies (especially given what one might have expected from first appearance of DC Comics' Trinity in one film), and was then shown up by the overperformance and near-unanimous critical acclaim of Patty Jenkins' much more colorful and optimistic Wonder Woman. Then it was looking like Justice League was shaping up to be more of the same grimdark violence-palooza, and Whedon was brought in to Avengers-ize the project with more humor, quippy dialog, and brightly colored action in the hopes doing so would add another billion or so at the box office. The tragic death of Snyder's daughter gave the studio an excuse for his exit that would save face publicly and avoid animosity in the future.

Turns out Justice League underperformed even worse, was also critically panned, and in the meantime all kinds of unpleasant revelations about Joss' personal and professional conduct came to light just as the MeToo movement was making such things problematic for studios. Meanwhile Snyder's fans who thought Batman v. Superman was a cinematic masterpiece have been calling for the Snyder Cut for years, and to his credit Snyder seems to be well-regarded by all the principal actors who've dealt with him.