I don't really think the Dollhouse is supposed to have anything other than a black hat. Well, dark grey if you don't discount people like Langton and maybe the doctor.

If they don't keep the part, then the new blank slate could become an Active. Or, you know, just dead

No, because one of the components of Echo's negotiator committed suicide.

::doublepost::

Some of the Dollhouse adverts have played the aspect of "Saviour", and the (specially recorded) promo music went to the tune of "My Angel". So, you know, you could argue they're saying the Actives can do good. And, of course, they can. Somebody could hire one for a brilliant reason. But, the reality is, as humans we often hire people for terrible things, and The Dollhouse company itself appears to not be very concerned about doing The Moral Thing(tm). Most companies aren't, no matter what they say.

Unmark those calendars folks - I'm pretty sure Victor and I are on different pages after all.

Well, it was nice where it lasted. (:

However, I think there's a difference between examining the internal logic of the show and condoning the show itself. (Mind, I'm not entirely sold on the show myself, but I'm a patient sort.)

Now, if we're talking about the framing of the show, yes, I entirely agree that the curtains are placed in such a way as to let the inattentive viewer think that the Dollhouse's activities are on the up and up, even as, I've mentioned, the pointers are that this is an incredibly fucked-up situation, and shouldn't be seen otherwise.

Personally, I think everyone invovled with the Dollhosue except the Actives themselves should be seen as unequivocal bad guys, with Langton showing potential to stop being a bad guy. Sure, the Dollhouse probably justifies its actions to themselves and its clients, but they're relaly just that: justifications.

Again, we're at the beginning of a story, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with not liking a story's beginning so much that you don't continue. Lord knows I've had my criticisms.

But that being said, I'm at least interested enough to see if Joss and co. pull of an interesting trick with this awkward hodgepodge of pieces. I find the fundamental question, the idea of a character with absolutely no agency, whatsoever developing it against odds to be interesting. For now, anyway. I don't insist that TV shows be moral arbiters, but I do want the cracks that I see in the Dollhouse's facade to be a bit more visible. Otherwise, I'll get bored very fast.

I'm only seeing grey with Harry Lennix's character. The rescue of the girl didn't even ping me as attempting to absolve the company as a whole. At all.

Especially as Lennix had to beg the company honchos to let him keep Echo's imprint until they could rescue the girl. Before that they seemed inclined to write the kid off.

I have some thoughts I wanted to post on the consent issue. But first a word about rape.

Although I'm male, on some level I get why rape/non-consensual sex is so horrifically offensive both in context or out of it. I find male rape scenes (like in Pulp Fiction and The Shield ), profoundly disturbing on more than an intellectual level. When I hear the constant references on television and in movies, about rape being an acceptable punitive and/or deterrent component to prison, I'm offended both morally and viscerally. There are no justifications for rape. None.

That being said, I'm not ready to define Echo's sex with clients as rape. The fact is, at least as far as the show has portrayed it, Caroline consented to becoming an Active. Until told otherwise, she knowingly consented to having her body used/manipulated/violated on a regular basis, and having her mind wiped so she would have no memory of the encounters.

I agree that this type of consent shouldn't be valid or legal or condoned. But that doesn't mean it's not consent. Yes, Caroline had no way of withdrawing her consent once she entered the program - but she knew the consent was irrevocable when she made it. It's still consent.

Take the German fellow who allowed himself to be killed and eaten by another fellow. That was consent. Once the other fellow killed him, there was no withdrawing the consent, yet this fellow gave it anyway. Should a person be able to consent to this type of activity? Absolutely not. The consent should be void as against public policy. Can a non-incompetent person consent to it? Yes.

Perhaps Caroline was forced to consent under duress? Let's find out. I'm intrigued at just how evil the Dollhouse will turn out to be, and the twisted moral code it runs by. Tony Soprano is twisted and interesting. So is Dexter Morgan. Heck so is Roman Grant, and (possible Big Love spoiler) not only does that twisted fuck sleep with young girls, he sends woman of all ages into non-consensual relationships all the time. And he's interesting as hell.

At the end of the day, it might turn out that Caroline is being raped by every client. Or maybe Caroline was assured that she'd have no memory of any of Echo's "missions" so if and when she recovers memory of these sexual acts maybe then it's rape. Or maybe then it turns out it was always rape. I don't know.

Wolfram, just to clarify: Someone sells herself to the mob as a prostitute, with the understanding that she is obligated until the contract is paid off. She tries to turn down a client, and two men with switch blades remind her she made an agreement and is expected to stick to it. Rape or not under your definition?

Rape. Consent under duress is not consent.

Echo not only consented to letting the company use her body but also to mess with her mind. This makes her at least partially responsible for her own victimization.

Echo not only consented to letting the company use her body but also to mess with her mind. This makes her at least partially responsible for her own victimization.

If she indeed knowingly consented to it all. I'm not convinced that she did. Or didn't. Or whom at Dollhouse knows how much she consented to or didn't consent to, and is thus complicit in any lack of consent.

I actually dug the second episode way more than the first. It's not amazing, but it's mostly entertaining. It's like at JJ Abrams level right now.