Oh, that's sad.

Agh, Wikipedia is saying she passed just a few minutes ago.

I think I'm going to go dig up my copy of Scribble Scribble and bury myself in it for a bit.

There is a laundry list of reasons people stay in "sub-optimal" communities.

::raises hand:: Hell, I moved *to* one.

New Orleans has issues, but it also has a lot going for it. I've never seen any evidence that Gotham has a renowned...anything. Even things like the Symphony are constantly getting shot up by mob bosses and super villains.

I'm sure we don't see all that Gotham has to offer, but I'd like to see some evidence that Bruce loves the place for a reason beyond fond memories of his father. Or anything happy (not to be confused with noble)

I've never seen any evidence that Gotham has a renowned...anything

In the movies, you mean? I need to rewatch before this one starts, but there was the "people mover" that seemed like it was an attempt to improve things and it was coming from a pretty sincere place of urban restoration.

The comic has told me explicitly that it's a city in decay after a generation of plenty--I don't know if I took that to the movies with me, or I also saw it there. But it is the lens with which I always watch it.

Bruce doesn't just remember it because of his parents, but more because of what his parents were trying to make it.

I'll get back to you after a rewatch.

The comic has told me explicitly that it's a city in decay after a generation of plenty

Isn't Crime Alley supposed to be on a formerly posh part of town? Not unlike what happened in the Bronx.

In the movies, I think Batman cares about Gotham because it is presented as uniquely corrupt, which means the people are suffering in a very particular way that can't be changed from within the system. He is explicit about wanting to inspire people.* I don't think it's "fond memories of his father" that motivate him so much as "Nobody else should have to endure what I did. [beat] Oh holy shit, lots of people are suffering even more. Well, that's got to be fixed."

*Longwinded aside: That's a big part of what I like Dark Knight so much. It's not about preventing a specific crime. The Joker's goal is to disillusion the population, and convince them that everyone can be corrupted and civic society is, well, a joke. Batman's goal is to make himself unnecessary -- he wants the people to have faith in their institutions, and he wants that faith to be justified.

And all of the above is why Moscow came to mind. There were opinion polls in the 90s where the Russian population as a whole viewed cops as being worse than drug dealers. (I'm not sure if they've changed much since but I keep forgetting to look for data while I'm at work.) Gotham isn't just suffering economically; the civic institutions have no credibility. There's Falone's speech to Bruce in BB about how he could shoot him in front of a judge and some cops and nobody would say a word. There's Gordon saying that there's no point in ratting out his partner for taking mob money; nobody would care. And all of that is why Harvey Dent is a big deal in TDK.

And apparently I had a lot of thoughts! And/or I'm so tired and rambling.

You know, I love your spicy brains and agree with what you are saying pretty much completely. But it doesn't change my visceral reaction that the movie is all sad and stuff when it's not boring. I'd like it more as a comic or novel, I think. Part of my boredom that is that I never quite buy in to Wayne's view of Dent as as such an all-encompassing powerful force for good. I just don't see a district attorney becoming that important a symbol, so a lot of setup is wasted on me. I also find the cell phone conundrum uninteresting, so there's another big idea with a lot of screen time that I don't care for. And now that I'm thinking about it, the ending doesn't work for me because I don't totally understand the point of Barman taking the blame. Is it to catalyze the cops, who as mentioned are so corrupt as to be laughable, or the people? Since I can't quite swallow a DA becoming a symbol for all that is right, I find the sacrifice of a symbol that certainly has power to be completely counterintuitive. I imagine that a lot of people in Gotham, who always believed the Batmanwas good, were far more demoralized by batman turning killer than they would be by an unexplained explosion and accident killing Harvey Dent.

I like Batmans side of the story, and think he is being noble but I'm not sure he's being smart.

I don't see TDK as sad though. The main thing that's sad: Batman at the end will be seen as a "bad guy" - that's the thing that made me exclaim each time I've seen the movie. I agree with Strega's take.

I wish they had problematized the notion that Batman was becoming a bad guy. If I were living in Gotham, I would probably feel as demoralized that Harvey Dent was corruptible than if Batman were a vigilante. Though I might be rooting for Batman as vigilante a bit more. If you lack faith in institutions, but had faith in Batman, does it really help if you retain faith in a martyr but lose faith in a living hero?

So, I finally went around seeing MI: Ghost Protocol on DVD and had a super-fantastic time! Apparently I don't mind Tom Cruise that much now? He was a huge fun to watch. Especially during that ridiculous "scaling the skyscraper with a pair of sticky gloves" shthick. That was AWESOME.

Jerrrrremy Rennnnner. How so hot?