The outsider thing isn't my reading, it's Loki's. He calls them misfits in the trailer. I'm just trying to chase down the canon support for it.

Jeremy Renner has cited his character's outsiderness as stemming from the loneliness of the sniper. Black Widow has easily accessible outsiderness because she's female and not superpowered, and because she's officially trained for the job.

Thor's a god/alien, Cap's from olden times, Hulk is a monster, Stark self-selects to stay on the fringes (and, by definition, being 1% wouldn't seem to make you fit *in*). It's all pretty easy to achieve, but I don't know if they bother with it in the comics, not least of all because it's got the most variable team lineup ever.

I think Tony Stark is more an outsider in terms of the superhero community.

Absolutely. If I recall correctly, he was basically on the anti-superhero side during Civil War.

not least of all because it's got the most variable team lineup ever.

This is the weird thing. I mean, Spider-Man was on the Avengers at one point, or maybe still. Spider-Man! Also I think he was one of the X-Men somehow. I saw ads.

I think the X-Men is the only big group Spidey hasn't been a member of. He's been an Avenger and a fill-in member of the Fantastic Four.

It's probably about entry requirements. The Avengers take just about anyone heroic (and it apparently helps to have been on the wrong side of the law), and the FF is family, which Peter is an honorary member of via being Johnny Storm's 2nd best friend.

In my head, X-Men are Marvel's JLA--not in any sort of narrative parallel, just that they're the first team a random guy on the street would think of from their imprint.

I'm with you, in that the X-Men are the first team I think of from Marvel, but I know more than enough Captain America/Avengers fans that I think there would be large chunk of random strangers that might think of the Avengers as Marvel's JLA before they would think of the X-Men that way.

But I'm explicitly not wondering about fans. I'm wondering about the average person who probably last read a comic as a teen, and even then, never collected, per se. To me, The Avengers is something that wouldn't have been predicted ten years ago, because no one knew Iron Man was going to do so well. They tried shit like Daredevil and Elektra and it didn't go so well, but Iron Man was massive and Thor and Captain America were pretty damned successful, so although the Hulk kept being disappointing, they figured they could hang a team movie off him, any team movie, whereas the X Men came with a bit of random name recognition up front. Not that I'd have expected anyone to be able to name an X Man other than maybe Wolvie, but still.

To me, The Avengers is something that wouldn't have been predicted ten years ago, because no one knew Iron Man was going to do so well.

This. I mean, I knew Batman and Superman and Spiderman, but I don't think you can live in the world and not have some idea who they are. I had never heard of Iron Man before the movie came out, and had never heard of Daredevil or Elektra either.

I heard of Iron Man from the Black Sabbath song.

I'm assuming that's not canon.

But I'm explicitly not wondering about fans. I'm wondering about the average person who probably last read a comic as a teen, and even then, never collected, per se.

I get that. I'm saying that some of those people might think of the Avengers first. Non-fans get at least some of their knowledge-through-osmosis from fans. THere's a large enough Captain America/Avengers fan base that I think there might be a non-insignificant chunk of non-fan random people who would think of the Avengers before the FF or the X-Men. But it's all speculation so it's hard to say.

Are there really a lot of people that get their idea of the comic landscape from fans, and not from what percolates through official channels of pop culture? I get the impression that my parents, for instance, can't make head nor tails of what I say, or my wallpaper or my posters or my T-shirts, but if it's on CNN, it might sink in.

I just think we fans, especially hardcore fans, have a really small influence on public perception of the things we like. I keep forgetting how many people can't actually tell Star Wars from Star Trek. I take so much for granted.

I collected X-Men comics in the 80s, and I still had no idea who Iron Man was--or the Avengers, really--until after the movie came out. I probably heard of the Avengers from other fans, and if someone had asked me who they were in the right situation (a gathering of fans or whatnot) I might have said something along the lines of, "some superhero group or other, I guess." I knew the Hulk, because I saw the tv show when I was a kid. I was aware of Thor comics because I have a Viking thing, but I never read them. Hawkeye? Black Widow? I'm still pretty fuzzy on the back story for both.

I'm looking forward to learning more about them. They just weren't on my radar until Iron Man 2 and Thor (movie).