I think one of the problems is conflating health and virtue. While the seven deadly sins include gluttony, they are sins because they hurt others and turn people's focus away from god. Sloth as a sin is doesn't mean that you don't exercise; it means that you succumb to despair or don't live up to your potential. To see fitness as a sign of godliness is to make improvement of the self the goal, rather than helping others.

Considering how often science reverses itself on what is healthful, it seems ridiculous to judge people on BMI or cholesterol or whatever. It's becoming increasingly clear that cholesterol levels and blood pressure are far more influenced by genetics than diet and that genetics dictates who will benefit from changes in diet and who will not.

Current wisdom is that margarine may be worse for your than butter because of the free radicals created by hydrogenating oil so that it's solid at room temperature. Dietary cholesterol from things like eggs and shrimp doesn't raise blood cholesterol. People really can fail to lose weight on a 1,000-calorie-a-day diet. While reducing cholesterol levels may reduce the chance of heart attacks, it doesn't seem to make people live longer.

I have to say that for a fat person, there is no believable way to prove that you have healthy habits - believable to medical professionals, potential mates or employers, society in general. I once spent a month writing down everything I ate or drank, down to the last teaspoon of sugar free Coffee Mate. I brought it with me to a doctor's appointment, and the response I got was, "If that is all you are eating, you should be losing weight."

Said in a sympathetic tone, so that I expected the doc to order some tests to find out *why* I wasn't losing weight. For a brief few minutes I had some hope that there would be some answers. When she did not, I was so stunned that I simply let her dismiss me from the office without a word, puzzled as to what her plan of treatment was going to be. It actually took me a couple of years to realize that the reason she didn't bother to lift a finger to find out what was wrong, is that she left unspoken was, "Since you are not losing weight, plainly that is not all you are eating."

I'm fat. I get looked down on for that. If I eat healthy, I'm still fat. If I exercise, I'm still fat. I still get looked down on. When I beg for help because eating healthy and exercising leaves me fat, I get responses like "quit eating fast food and drinking pop". It's only in the last year or so that I have had the guts to respond, "Ok, so exactly how is it going to help for me to START eating fast food, and drinking pop, so that I can quit?" So far, that has gotten exactly zero answers.

Nobody will tell me how to force the healthy habits to actually produce the societal acceptance and approbation that skinny people get for having those habits.

Can you imagine a skinny person going to a doctor with a heart problem and having the doctor say, "Your heart is only functioning at 50% capacity, but that's ok." And offer no explanations, no treatment options? Then the skinny person gets all fiesty and demands the doc do *something*. So the doctor says, "Tell ya what, if you want, we can excise 70% of your skin. Now, that won't fix your heart, but the enforced restricted activity will make it less noticeable that your heart isn't working. This is a scientifically proven procedure, it works. Really. But your insurance company considers it a cosmetic procedure, so you get to go into bankruptsy to pay for it." That's what I feel gastric bypass surgery that has been offered to me is. The stomach is not the seat of metabolism. So how can operating on it fix mine?

For obvious reasons (you-know-what likes carrots) I spend a lot of time thinking about how to influence people to make the choices I want them to, and a lot of that is thinking about how a group attitude forms and influences the members' actions.

Erm, I'm not sure I have any useful things to say. I think eating better foods is something that's becoming societally encouraged without necessarily shaming those who choose not to... I don't know. Maybe shame is an inextricable part of societal attitudes -- it's definitely one of the main cultural normalization tools.

And maybe even if shame is not intended, it's always going to be felt (or, rather, not shame but the intent to shame). Maybe I'm just feeling fatalistic today.

Spit back!

Alas, not my thing.

Shir, we could design some religious literature for you to give them, extolling the virtues of worshipping the Flying Spagetti Monster by free love and public nudity for you to oh, so graciously give them.

It wouldn't help either side, but it might be fun to watch.

t /really supportive

If someone chooses not to do something that I, personally, do, it's really not my place to get in their face about it.

Hmm, so you don't think we should legislate those things? What about speed limits?

Yeah, my reaction to that statement was that it could be taken to mean that we shouldn't have any laws or rules about anything; everyone should be allowed to do what they want. I don't think Tep is an anarchist, but I don't know.

I didn't say anything about legislation. If I did, please point it out.

I said that *I* am not going to get up in someone's face if they choose to not do something that I choose to do.

I'm not going to deride people for playing WoW, I'm not going to scold an adult for not wearing a seat belt, and I'm not going to tell fat people they should exercise for the good of society.

Me. My own personal choice as to whether or not I'm going to be arrogant enough to think that I, personally, should be the arbiter of others' behavior.

I didn't say word one about laws and rules.

Ah, okay, thanks for clarifying. Sorry for misinterpreting.

I have to think about influencing people to make good choices enough as a parent; I don't need to add friends and strangers to the list. That said, you are not my kids, but don't smoke, don't drink or do drugs (in excess), make healthy food choices, and exercise! Also, wear your seat belts and helmets, and stay away from unprotected sex, and dirty needles. If you choose to, because I love you and want you to live a long and healthy life. t /mommymode

Half my family left early this morning for a basketball tournament in Orlando. I made up 12 little Easter baskets for DH to give to the team on Sunday since they won't be home. Now to figure out what Bobby and I will do for the holiday. There may be junk food.

Ah, okay, thanks for clarifying.

Ditto. I gotcha now.

Nobody will tell me how to force the healthy habits to actually produce the societal acceptance and approbation that skinny people get for having those habits.

Not to mention the societal acceptance and approbation that skinny people get even if they don't have those habits. The most slender, sylphlike and unearthly beautiful two women I've ever known both lived on coffee, cigarettes and french fries; one of them, IIRC, did a bit of yoga and both did just about as much exercise as anyone without a driver's license does in walking-friendly urban areas but not a bit more. And both were petted and loved and their health care providers, teachers, yoga instructors, etc. etc. etc. didn't say boo about their shitty dietary habits and poor strength and endurance.

Healthy habits are a great ideal, and a societal shift to encouraging them is great, but there's no way to tell just from looking at most people whether they have those habits. And yet, we don't hesitate to look and to judge. It's not accurate, it's unfairly shaming to people like WS, and it also does a serious disservice to people like my two friends who needed help and weren't getting it because they looked thin+pretty=ideal=already perfectly healthy. Bah on all of it.