Actually, having thought about it overnight, I'm sort of glad we didn't get it. Given what an unreliable narrator Sam was, in first half of first season especially, and that the premiere ep was totally The Sam Show, with his comic sidekick Dean, it might have been ugly.

What we got was a little ugly already though. This is where Sam says John gave him a gun when he said he was afraid something was in his closet. He said John told him not to come back if he left for college. I think the longer exposition scenes that were cut would have just expanded the major points that we already had.

I ended up watching 3.02 and then 3.03, Dream a little Dream, because there was a dream sequence of Lisa that I didn't remember. Kripke said he had tried to get JDM for that episode to be the one that Dean talked to instead of it being a double Jensen scene. I am SO very glad they couldn't get JDM. He said they kept some of the dialogue as it related to the relationship between Dean and John. I don't think I could have taken John talking to Dean like that or Dean snapping and shooting him. It just takes the whole thing to a new level if I had to see it.

I'm starting to get to the place where I almost hope they don't get JDM back.

I'm starting to get to the place where I almost hope they don't get JDM back.

You must be watching GA.

I'm starting to get to the place where I almost hope they don't get JDM back.

I think the brothers have evolved beyond the point where their father's input would be helpful. He's not really relevant any longer.

Which is why I'd like him back as a younger relative of John's, new to the whole supernatural thing, closer in age and relating differently to Sam & Dean than John did. It would be an interesting dynamic for the show, I think. And JDM would get to play his own age, with the occasional flash of family resemblance to eerily remind the boys of their dad.

Dream a little Dream, [snip] Kripke said he had tried to get JDM for that episode to be the one that Dean talked to instead of it being a double Jensen scene. I am SO very glad they couldn't get JDM. He said they kept some of the dialogue as it related to the relationship between Dean and John. I don't think I could have taken John talking to Dean like that or Dean snapping and shooting him.

Oh, a very shuddery reprise of Devil's Trap. I don't know. Those two actors face off so well, especially when John's possessed by something evil. I'd like to have seen it, I think.

I think the longer exposition scenes that were cut (from the pilot) would have just expanded the major points that we already had.

Possibly. But we already have such a deep dislike and often hatred of John, such a jaundiced picture of him as a parent because of those few lines of Sam's in the pilot. A ficwriter said she was completely convinced that John had spent the boys' chldhood either in a drunken rage or a drunken stupor, and believed there was support for her view in canon. She cited (to herself) scenes in Home, in Dead Man's Blood and Salvation where there was a whiskey bottle at John's elbow, and when she rewatched to verify, she was surprised to be proven wrong. John is not, in canon, ever shown drinking. Where that impression came from is Sam's acid criticism in the pilot--a Sam who was still in the lingering throes of adolescent rebellion and a completely biased narrator.

He gets a more balanced picture of his dad in Bugs, and in little lines all through first season, and in Nightmare Sam admits that John had a difficult time dealing with the loss of his wife, being a single father, and discovering and learning about the supernatural, and John that did a good job raising him and Dean considering the odds stacked against him.

But the pilot episode made such an impression on fandom at large that John has been forever labeled an abusive, alcoholic parent (which has some merit, but not to the lengths fandom seems to believe), no matter what qualifiers came later.

So I don't know that more exposition in the pilot would have clarified anything, or just have given more Sam-biased background information to be refuted or qualified later.

Pie and tea.

Wasn't there mention a few weeks ago about a W&P sometime this weekend? Anybody up for that? If so, what would people think of a good selection of cross-season eps?

I'd love to W&P, but I'm running in and posting around others' activities. I feel like the Posting Bandit. :)

I understand what you are saying Bev. I love John. I won't ever call him abusive because I can't put that label on him. However, I think the idea that John wasn't perfect has merit. I think he was, as Dean called him in that awful (wonderful) scene, "an obsessive bastard" who layed too much on Dean's shoulders. Do I have more forgiveness for John than the boys or most of fandom? Probably. I can't place myself in John's shoes and think that I would have done any better and am sure that I would have done worse. I'm not sure it would be believable for anyone to have done better.

I LOVE your idea of having Jeff come back as a relative. John's youngest mechanic brother who never was quite sure why John left town or why the family won't talk about it. OMG, I may have found my plot bunny.

You must be watching GA.

HA! I did see some of the clips that tiggy pointed me to so that I didn't have to see complete episodes. Yay tiggy! I think I will see all of Denny on youtube because I don't think I can stomach the show.

I mentioned the idea of doing a W&P this Sunday, but I have in the interim lent out my discs.

I do have a few eps on iTunes, plus all of s3 and a chunk of s2 on DVR

I sit with Beverly on the John-love. I may even be the ficwriter in question, because the first episode I saw was "In My Time of Dying", I think. I saw some of season 2 before going back to see season 1, and was surprised that, as you say, there was never anything on screen to support Sam's contention that John was a drunk.

That John wasn't perfect, I think we have to accept. But that John was the abusive bastard Kripke seems to think he was, is not supported by the very text Kripke is creating. And yeah, I'm quite happy they didn't bring JDM back to verbally abuse Dean in DALD, because that would have been taken as John's opinion of Dean, and not Dean's inner self-hate.

Kripke needs to stop talking about John, please. His Daddy Issues, Please Do Not Show Us.

Oh, a very shuddery reprise of Devil's Trap. I don't know. Those two actors face off so well, especially when John's possessed by something evil. I'd like to have seen it, I think.

I am so with you, Bev. So long as we're shown Dean's actual issues and not Kripke's Daddy Issues.

It could be done really well but likely not with show's writing and direction.

Oooh, plot bunny for sale to good owner?

After hearing some of the times when Kripke is allowed to talk about the show, I'm pretty sure that I like a different show than the one he is making. Did people cringe when Joss answered questions? I don't remember that but I was on the fringe fandom back in Buffy prime.

This is why I daily--weekly, at least--give thanks that Bob Singer, Phil Scgriccia, Kim Manners, Jensen Ackles, Jared Padalecki, a host of really wonderful, strong guest actors and a fabulous, dedicated production crew are involved in the show. If it was Kripke casting and directing? Not my show.

Joss, as I remember, was more politic in his comments.