him in hell does not seem like a victorious ending any way that I look at it

He saved the world from destruction. How is that not victorious?

He saved the world from destruction. How is that not victorious?

It's great for the world. It sucks for him.

It's great for the world. It sucks for him.

Yeah, it does. But the hero has never been promised rainbows and puppies and chocolate fountains for his/her sacrifice.

To me, it's so awesome that Sam chose to do that, to sacrifice himself that way, to do something so selfless, I can't feel sorry for him. And I think when you make that kind of choice, you know damn well what you've giving up, and you do it anyway.

He doesn't deserve torment, of course. But I can't imagine he wouldn't make the same choice again and again because of who he is.

I think that saving the world isn't losing. Sure he died to do that. A LOT of people die. For nothing. Especially in this show. Sam died to save a whole lot of the world from being destroyed in a bit of sibling smackdown. I am pretty sure this is the most heroic thing he could have possibly done in this 'verse.

It was victorious, but not happy. I am surprised at the people that think it's unfair that Dean is off being happy, but I saw no evidence of that.

Cas asked if Dean would want peace or freedom. I'm not sure what the answer to that is.

Cas asked if Dean would want peace or freedom. I'm not sure what the answer to that is.

There are so many ways you could parse that, too. I have to wonder if what Cas asked is what Dean heard or understood.

I don't know his answer, either, I don't think.

I wonder equally what Casiel's answer would be to his own question.

[catching up on an especially prolific thread tonight].

I'd think Dean would say peace...partially because he thinks that's what Sam has chosen for him.

But there'll be peace when they're done. They're not done yet. Sing Freebird instead.

A LOT of people die. For nothing. Especially in this show.

In the real world too. "No good deed goes unpunished" is a cliche for a reason. People who help make the world a better place often end up miserable, and sometimes die making the world a better place, or die trying and don't end up making the world a better place. To take an example that I don't think will be too contentious, the Uncle I'm named after was a fighter pilot in WWII, and died of a head wound, but he also killed a lot Nazis first. From the stories I've heard, I'm pretty sure he counted that as a win.

[link] So I guess the wedding is tomorrow. Which makes me really really happy. I hope for some photos of the dress, because wedding dresses and smiling boys make me happy.

I keep thinking about last night. That moment of acceptance that Sam had where he closed his eyes and let himself fall toward the hole. His face was so peaceful. I thought that was so powerful and such a conscious choice to save the rest of the world. I was afraid it was going to be ruined by Michael stopping him, but then I saw of course, that gave Sam the opportunity to pull Michael in as well. I guess Michael had to go in otherwise, the whole thing would have started again in order to have the showdown. So maybe that was another way that Sam changed destiny. With all of that history stacked up against him not only did he take out the bad guy and not unleash him on earth, but he took out the "good" guy so there wouldn't be a repeat of the battle in the cemetary. I think Sam gave destiny the finger.