He was never destined to jump. He was destined to say yes and facilitate the end of the world. I don't get where he submits. He subverted. He never went over to the dark side

The destiny was supposed to be Lucifer wearing Sam to the prom and fighting Michael who was wearing Dean. That didn't happen.

He subverted destiny. It is a not a matter of his doing what he was supposed to. His destiny was to go on a rampage and fight Michael, destroying the world (or most of it ) in the process. He jumped into hell and subverted it. He is not only a big damn hero. He is a big damn hero who subverted his destiny. Team free will won, and that was not what was supposed to happen.

Okay, I can accept what you're saying about the events of the episode (Sam leaping into hell, him not actually fighting Michael, the world not ending in rubble) meaning that the Destiny wasn't fulfilled.

But the fact that he ended up with Lucifer inside him, and with him in hell does not seem like a victorious ending any way that I look at it. I'm hoping that the final shot might be a Sam free and clear of Lucifer but I'm not convinced of that. Add it to a Dean that I feel is in an extremely precarious mental state, and I can't feel relief or triumph. (Except for Castiel -- I was so happy for him, to see his powers restored and even augmented, and his determination to go kick ass and take names.)

deleted Sorry for the double post.

I think the demon blood is to make him extra hot.

Very good point. Also? There was a tiny bit on his bottom lip when he started walking out of shot, and mrph.

I can only imagine, if this is anything like whatever the end of his five-year story arc originally was, they both died.

him in hell does not seem like a victorious ending any way that I look at it

He saved the world from destruction. How is that not victorious?

He saved the world from destruction. How is that not victorious?

It's great for the world. It sucks for him.

It's great for the world. It sucks for him.

Yeah, it does. But the hero has never been promised rainbows and puppies and chocolate fountains for his/her sacrifice.

To me, it's so awesome that Sam chose to do that, to sacrifice himself that way, to do something so selfless, I can't feel sorry for him. And I think when you make that kind of choice, you know damn well what you've giving up, and you do it anyway.

He doesn't deserve torment, of course. But I can't imagine he wouldn't make the same choice again and again because of who he is.

I think that saving the world isn't losing. Sure he died to do that. A LOT of people die. For nothing. Especially in this show. Sam died to save a whole lot of the world from being destroyed in a bit of sibling smackdown. I am pretty sure this is the most heroic thing he could have possibly done in this 'verse.

It was victorious, but not happy. I am surprised at the people that think it's unfair that Dean is off being happy, but I saw no evidence of that.

Cas asked if Dean would want peace or freedom. I'm not sure what the answer to that is.

Cas asked if Dean would want peace or freedom. I'm not sure what the answer to that is.

There are so many ways you could parse that, too. I have to wonder if what Cas asked is what Dean heard or understood.

I don't know his answer, either, I don't think.

I wonder equally what Casiel's answer would be to his own question.

[catching up on an especially prolific thread tonight].