and if it had said Dean thought he was a shitty dad that would be different from putting forth the declaritive statement

It was his POV. Like, in-head narration.

So, for me, it was Dean's thoughts about himself. Not an outside judgment.

eta: Oh. ita already said that. Whoops.

I didn't get a sense of who Michael was other than someone who took his filial duty to an assholish extreme.

I pretty much agree. And I've got to admit, I was a little narratively disappointed in the Stand-Off of Meaningful Dialog between Lucifer and Michael.

I didn't get a sense of who Michael was other than someone who took his filial duty to an assholish extreme.

I don't think we were meant to, though? He seemed to be a symbol to me, in a way Lucifer wasn't.

Lucifer was (possibly) what Sam could have been, taken to the extreme, embracing the darkside and its power.

Michael was, well, Dean. Until very recently. A Dean who never learned that he could choose something outside of what his father had trained him to do.

I don't think we were meant to, though? He seemed to be a symbol to me, in a way Lucifer wasn't.

That's part of the problem. Lucifer was (to me) an interesting character, with complex feelings and relationships to his brothers. The Lucifer-Gabriel confrontation packed a lot more punch than the Lucifer-Michael fight. It's more compelling to see one fleshed-out character fight another than to see that same character fight a symbol or an idea.

IMO, Lucifer was just as intransigent as Michael, but there was more to him that that intransigence. Now that I think of it, I think that if I had cared about Michael as a character, that fall into the pit would have had even more of a punch. It would have been heroic for Sam and heartbreakingly tragic (in the old, hubrisy sense) for Michael.

It's more compelling to see one fleshed-out character fight another than to see that same character fight a symbol or an idea.

I can see that. For me, though, I feel like Dean and Sam already had that confrontation and came through it. So aside from who died as a result of Michael and Lucifer's confrontation, I didn't really care about it. We had to see it, so we could see what happened to Sam and Dean (and Adam), but I didn't feel like I was supposed to care that much.

YMMV, of course.

So aside from who died as a result of Michael and Lucifer's confrontation, I didn't really care about it. We had to see it, so we could see what happened to Sam and Dean (and Adam), but I didn't feel like I was supposed to care that much.

If we weren't supposed to care that much, that strikes me as one hell of a missed opportunity. I think that's what pushes me past apathy towards the outcome of the fight to annoyance.

Edit: I find that when I am annoyed with Show, it's less to do with the choices they make in terms of plot or character direction and more to do with execution. I think Lucifer and Michael falling together into the pit was excellent; I just wish I had more investment in that part of the outcome.

I remain theoretically disappointed that we never got to see JA play Michael. I thought Jake...wait, he's JA too, huh?...was serviceable. But I could have gotten more out of the "I am the good son" and brother parallels from the boy who grew up without a father or siblings if a more nuanced actor had been able to put more heft behind it.

I got as much from Michael as I wanted--but I'd have liked more from the Michael-Adam hybrid irony and false parallels.

I know this is late, but I needed time to process.

cross-posted to LJ:

I've been reading peoples' reactions on LJ and as expected they're a mix of loved-it and meh. I've been concentrating more on the loved-it reviews because I'm trying to extract something to help me overcome the unhappy residue I was left with last night. I didn't dislike everything about it; I really liked that the Impala finally got her chance to shine. And that she didn't get totalled - from Chuck's intro I was afraid that she was going to be destroyed by the end of the episode. The interactions between Bobby and Sam ("Yes Sir") and Castiel and Sam were of the awesome. Thank goodness for Castiel's ability to bring the comic relief in the midst of the darkness. Dean and Sam interacting on a level playing field, like grownups, was a long time coming and wonderful to see.

I would have liked to see an extra minute or so of Dean and Sam time. Maybe a hug before sending Sam off to his almost certain doom. And the amulet... where was the amulet? Kripke couldn't have thrown us a bone and shown Sam giving it back to Dean?

But the ending. While I am beyond happy that Bobby and Castiel are not dead it seems a cheat that no deaths had any actual consequences. And I am very happy that Dean won't be alone (although it hurts that he's planning to isolate himself from Bobby) since we know he doesn't cope well with that, and that he'll have a source of comfort, I'm still unsure about the Lisa storyline. I'm still of the belief that she's an ideal rather than an actual person (one bendy weekend 9 years ago, after all) so I don't see that as a solid basis for building a family. Not if she's smart. (And she's just been sitting there waiting for him?) But unless Dean's going to spend season 6 hunting while being in a relationship I don't think we'll have Lisa to cope with for long.

But it's the Sam situation that distresses me the most. Because as it turns out we learned that Sam has been headed towards this all his life, from the time he was born from a union formed by a Cupid at the order of heaven. Then apparently Lucifer was directing his life, as he had demons surrounding him (a teacher, his prom date) and Azazel was doing the same (Brady at Stanford). (Which is a question – was Azazel working for Lucifer? Or were they working on conflicting paths?) So the various forces of Hell were directing Sam’s life even before Ruby showed up and began manipulating him.

And when it wasn’t Hell/Azazel/Lucifer/Ruby manipulating Sam to behave in a certain way, John and/or Dean was constantly repeating the Winchester manifesto and insisting that he had to stay with the family, he had to hunt supernatural beasties, regardless of whatever else he might want to do with his life.

No wonder Sam spent his entire life being angry and trying to escape. He was being shoved into that box marked “Destiny” his entire life, even before Zachariah showed up to explain it all.

And the climax to his his story arc? He submits to his destiny. He says yes to Lucifer and jumps into Hell. So yes, I know he did it to save mankind. I’m not arguing that part of it. I know it makes him a Big Damn Hero. But I hate that it also means that after a lifetime of struggling against everyone and everything that tried to force him to do something he ended up doing that anyway. And that it’s supposed to be some sort of triumph.

He submits to his destiny

He was never destined to jump. He was destined to say yes and facilitate the end of the world. I don't get where he submits. He subverted. He never went over to the dark side, accepted the evil like Jake or Ava.

was Azazel working for Lucifer?

Yes. They had the conversation in Lucifer Rising where Lucifer told Azazel that he must find a special child to break the seals and it involved Lilith.

He was destined to say yes and facilitate the end of the world. I don't get where he submits.

Neither do I.

The destiny was supposed to be Lucifer wearing Sam to the prom and fighting Michael who was wearing Dean. That didn't happen.