Frell. Long response, typed in posting box rather than notepad, b.org ate it. Frack.

Thanks for the links. Missyjack's meta eased the sting a little by emphasizing choices made within unchangeable destiny. Refur's coda offers a bit more hope than a Sam-shape standing beneath a sparking streetlight.

My inability to make peace with 5.22 is founded in perhaps a futile hope that destiny can be changed. That we don't have to stand on the square some unseen hand nudges us toward, that we can in fact move the opposite direction, even off the board, if we're smart enough and willing to take risks and work hard. Instead of being the best possible knight to ever grace a chessboard, you know?

It's a basic philosophy disagreement. I wanted there to be a way to avert the apocalypse (and after BtVS and SPN, I never want to hear that word again unless there is literally fire raining from the skies) without Sam required to be Lucifer's vessel and carry him back into his cage. I wanted the Winchesters to give god the finger and say, No, we don't. This is your mess, you clean it up, don't put that on us.

Yes, they were both heroes. Yes, they were true to themselves. And Sam's in hell and Dean's in hell, and really, what the hell?

I hope that there would have been some other resolution had this been the series finale, because the crap they've each and both been through in the last five years--this is the payoff? This is the peace when they're done? I'd hope this ending was the setup for S6, instead, and that I can look forward to a happier resolution by 6.22.

They were destined to be Lucifer and Michael's vessels and act out the battle that would wipe out most of the earth's population.

That didn't happen. Dean plainly didn't say yes, and even more importantly, Sam said yes and flipped Lucifer the bird, because the power of love did win the day.

It wasn't destined for the earth to come out of it mostly unscathed. But it did, because Sam was that strong, and because Dean wouldn't let him be.

It absolutely mattered what they did, and who they were. Look at poor Adam! I hope that whatever force (God, probably) got Castiel and Sam out of their jam put him back in heaven and maybe he finds his mother. But he didn't have what Sam and Dean had, and he wasn't able to stand up to the powerful forces arrayed against humanity.

I think the Lisa thing is wrong, but I totally get why both of them think it's right, so I don't mind Sam extracting the promise and Dean following through. I will be disappointed if Show thinks it's right, though.

eta:

And Sam's in hell and Dean's in hell, and really, what the hell?

Sam's in Hell? Who do you think is under the streetlight, then? I thought JP did a good job of differentiating between Lucifer and Sam, and I thought I saw Sam. A different Sam, but Sam there.

Dean's seeking an end to his misery, and in the wrong place. Time enough to get that resolved. It didn't need a bow on it at the end of S5. I wouldn't have expected it--it doesn't jibe with the season enders that have preceded it.

Yes, they were heroes, I don't deny that. Yes, they made choices within the destiny they were given.

What ita said.

I absolutely saw destiny subverted. I'm okay narratively with where they left it particularly with another season coming, but regarding Dean and Lisa

I will be disappointed if Show thinks it's right, though.

This. And knowing our writers I think it's gonna go pear-shaped somehow or other, Lisa and Dean that is, not narratively.

though sadly she didn't vanish

you don't ever lie.

That didn't happen. Dean plainly didn't say yes, and even more importantly, Sam said yes and flipped Lucifer the bird, because the power of love did win the day

YELLOW CRAYON!

they made choices within the destiny they were given.

How does Dean saying no fit within the destiny they were given?

Sam subverted an angel. I thought him resisting Famine's ultimate temptation was big, but this? If I weren't so in love with Dean, I'd be the biggest Sam!Girl ever.

YELLOW CRAYON!

THE IMPALA OF BROTHERLY LOVE!

Hee.

How does Dean saying no fit within the destiny they were given?

Sam subverted an angel.

True. And a mighty effort it was. Their destiny was to save the world, at whatever cost, and they did that.

I know irl streetlights burn out all the time but in fiction it only happens for a reason.