Well, there are recommendations, and then...

train recs?

I will also be reading it, for the Ben,

..Well, he's Ben. Of course.

I read the first one-shot off that story for the Ben. Awesome. Although I do worry about the guy Alec covered in sand. Not sure if I believe that he's still breathing.

It's like crack. I don't expect any of the kids to ever be healed, because the damage is fuel.

I just bumped into vids by emily reich: S4 trailer, and a much more lighthearted What About Everything which manages not to get me verklempt when she hits sad clips. Okay, not too verklempt. I'm still me.

In my rewatch mode, I saw Nightmare and there is some early canon praise from Sammy about the way that John raised the boys!! He said "if it hadn't been for Dad", he might have turned out like Max. "More tequila and less demon hunting, and that might have been our childhood."

So poo on all the John haters. No abuse. And I bet he didn't drink as much as Dean does, who at this point I'm thinking is a functioning alcoholic, but Cheese and Crackers, who wouldn't drink to excess in that situation? A saint maybe, but that was never John Winchester.

Oh, I will never believe John abused them. There's some benign neglect there, absolutely, but I don't believe he hit them or emotionally abused them. And I think pilot!Sam's remarks about John's drinking were a character shorthand and a nasty exaggeration because back then he was pissy emo Sam.

What Amy said. Not that I'm defensive about it or anything. ::rolls eyes at herself::

Loved the What About Everything vid. I will never not laugh out loud when I see the alien slow dancing.

I don't think of myself as a John hater, but I can see how John lovers would see me as such. I think that the way he raised them was at least borderline emotionally abusive, placing way more on Dean than a kid should ever have to shoulder at that age. Protecting his little brother with a shotgun? Giving a 9 year old a .45 to calm his fear? That's not benign neglect. That's not good parenting at all.

I also am on record as not thinking of corporal punishment as a horrible thing, and if my mother could do it, so could John, although the text doesn't state it.

As for the drinking, I have no, absolutely no, difficulty with the idea of him as a high-functioning alcoholic, although S5 Dean could probably drink him under a table and still not be able to fall asleep. But so much of what we've seen of hunters revolves around alcohol--Bobby, the Roadhouse--I've just incorporated it into my fanon as a hunter way of coping, and with what they see and what probably drove them into the lifestyle, it probably takes a lot of lubrication.

I think Sam judges John for the drinking more than Dean ever would--because Sam wants normal and I'm sure he doesn't think normal fathers drink. Plus Dean drinks to cope, and has for a long time, and Dean idolise(s/d) his father.

I still think John was driven to this out of love, and thought this was the only way to protect his boys, and the only way to get through his pain. That's the John I see. If he hadn't been so driven to revenge, probably not so much of a factor at all.

When I say emotional abuse I mean outright berating, though -- "You worthless piece of shit," that kind of thing.

His expectations for Dean were completely unrealistic and way more than any child should have to carry, it's true. But I do think he loved them. And I do think he wanted more for them. I also think the drinking may have been as much about hiding from his own guilt about the life he'd led them into as grief for Mary or horror at the things he hunted.

I thought one weird moment in PoNR was when Dean wanted a beer and had to ask Sam to get out of the way of the fridge to get one. Sam doesn't actually say anything, but after the number of shots of him in the hotel room drinking while he writing the letter, it seemed pointed. In other words, I think Sam and probably Bobby would agree that Dean is a functioning alcoholic at this point, too.

That's not John Hate. That's rational thinking. I wouldn't have John over to babysit, but I'd sure let him protect my kid if we were facing monsters.

His expectations for Dean were completely unrealistic and way more than any child should have to carry, it's true.

Here I think extreme situation calling for extreme measures.

Is it from fan fic that he checked up on Sam while Sam was at school or was that said in an episode?