Oh, I will never believe John abused them. There's some benign neglect there, absolutely, but I don't believe he hit them or emotionally abused them. And I think pilot!Sam's remarks about John's drinking were a character shorthand and a nasty exaggeration because back then he was pissy emo Sam.

What Amy said. Not that I'm defensive about it or anything. ::rolls eyes at herself::

Loved the What About Everything vid. I will never not laugh out loud when I see the alien slow dancing.

I don't think of myself as a John hater, but I can see how John lovers would see me as such. I think that the way he raised them was at least borderline emotionally abusive, placing way more on Dean than a kid should ever have to shoulder at that age. Protecting his little brother with a shotgun? Giving a 9 year old a .45 to calm his fear? That's not benign neglect. That's not good parenting at all.

I also am on record as not thinking of corporal punishment as a horrible thing, and if my mother could do it, so could John, although the text doesn't state it.

As for the drinking, I have no, absolutely no, difficulty with the idea of him as a high-functioning alcoholic, although S5 Dean could probably drink him under a table and still not be able to fall asleep. But so much of what we've seen of hunters revolves around alcohol--Bobby, the Roadhouse--I've just incorporated it into my fanon as a hunter way of coping, and with what they see and what probably drove them into the lifestyle, it probably takes a lot of lubrication.

I think Sam judges John for the drinking more than Dean ever would--because Sam wants normal and I'm sure he doesn't think normal fathers drink. Plus Dean drinks to cope, and has for a long time, and Dean idolise(s/d) his father.

I still think John was driven to this out of love, and thought this was the only way to protect his boys, and the only way to get through his pain. That's the John I see. If he hadn't been so driven to revenge, probably not so much of a factor at all.

When I say emotional abuse I mean outright berating, though -- "You worthless piece of shit," that kind of thing.

His expectations for Dean were completely unrealistic and way more than any child should have to carry, it's true. But I do think he loved them. And I do think he wanted more for them. I also think the drinking may have been as much about hiding from his own guilt about the life he'd led them into as grief for Mary or horror at the things he hunted.

I thought one weird moment in PoNR was when Dean wanted a beer and had to ask Sam to get out of the way of the fridge to get one. Sam doesn't actually say anything, but after the number of shots of him in the hotel room drinking while he writing the letter, it seemed pointed. In other words, I think Sam and probably Bobby would agree that Dean is a functioning alcoholic at this point, too.

That's not John Hate. That's rational thinking. I wouldn't have John over to babysit, but I'd sure let him protect my kid if we were facing monsters.

His expectations for Dean were completely unrealistic and way more than any child should have to carry, it's true.

Here I think extreme situation calling for extreme measures.

Is it from fan fic that he checked up on Sam while Sam was at school or was that said in an episode?

When I say emotional abuse I mean outright berating, though -- "You worthless piece of shit," that kind of thing.

Well, it's still up in the air what he did to Dean when Sam ran in Flagstaff, but as highly sensitised as Dean was, it could have been an arched eyebrow. I just think there's a lot of room for interpretation, and raising your kids as soldiers probably has berating in there.

Here I think extreme situation calling for extreme measures.

Giving up his kids would be an alternate extreme measure that I don't think he considered for a second. He certainly didn't take the only way, and he didn't know that Sammy was YED's pet kid until later, did he?

was that said in an episode?

That was said in an ep in S1, but I couldn't tell you which one.

Protecting his little brother with a shotgun? Giving a 9 year old a .45 to calm his fear? That's not benign neglect. That's not good parenting at all.

When I say emotional abuse I mean outright berating, though -- "You worthless piece of shit," that kind of thing.

I am pretty sure that if, in this world, if a kid Dean's age were "protecting" his little brother with a shotgun on orders from his father who was missing for days and days? We'd all say it was abusive. Or I certainly would. Now, SPN is a 'verse onto itself and there are certainly things that need to be protected from, but I think it's partially blinding to have John portrayed by someone as charming as JDM. Because I like John Winchester. I do. But he wasn't a good parent. I know he had reasons and I know he wasn't in this life and then chose to have kids that would have to grow up in it, but he wasn't an ideal dad in my eyes.

And it's not a conversation I'd get into really any place but here likely because I'd be shredded as anti-John, but I think it's so much more complicated than that. And it's fiction, it should be complicated.

Is it from fan fic that he checked up on Sam while Sam was at school or was that said in an episode?

Definitely canon, from the episode Bugs.

Just the absences alone would get the kids taken away from John. Just because Dean was good at it, doesn't make it good decision-making.

I think it's partially blinding to have John portrayed by someone as charming as JDM.

This is probably very true, especially for me.

I have my irrational spots, I admit. I'm way too willing to see his love for them with a wink in one episode, but objectively I know what happened in ... Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things? The one with the shtriga. Leaving a four-year-old (five? unclear) with a nine-year-old with hardly any food and expecting the nine-year-old to stay in that room and act as a guard, more or less, *is* insane. And wrong. And that's just one example out of many, even only implied. A Very SPN Christmas breaks my heart.

I just have to step back and think about it, because my initial reaction to John was colored by Dean's loyalty, and then bearded, older JDM showed up in Home and it was all over for me.