I concur with raw. There's no way I could tell who directed this episode--it was handily done.

I agree that Crowley's a bad king of hell. His mind is always on something else--like making the Winchesters his best friends? How is that not a Roy and Walt level decision? Giving Cas grace for a favour ?

I did note that Dean promised vengeance on whoever killed Sam--not in an emo pleading please don't kill him don't hurt HIM way. Just that--he is mine, and if you kill him, you will pay.

Kind of like Soulless Sam hieing to Dean.

I think both of those are due to John WInchesters A+++ Parenting (actual AO3 tag) which has given them bonds above and beyond emotions and ethics. They belong to each other.

Is the grace Cas has now clean and self-charging, or will he need to recharge vampirically and periodically?

I was wondering that, too, about Cas' grace. It's still stolen grace so it will still deteriorate, or whatever, right?

It seems to be being played like this is a fix, not a stopgap, or is it just me getting that feeling? Were there differences in collecting? She was still alive and they just pulled it out, versus taking it from someone dying like before?

I DON'T KNOW.

Yeah, it seemed to be played like a solution, but I don't see how it could be given what little we know. But maybe the live donor thing makes a difference, or just the magic of Crowley, who knows?

I was thinking that it's like fuel -- you have it until it runs out. So, Cas has about a season's worth of grace.

Although, I don't know why the loss of grace manifests itself as painful. It seems to me that the effect of losing grace is to become more and more human, but that wouldn't be painful. Or maybe that's what happens when the grace is not the owners t /handwavium

Although, I don't know why the loss of grace manifests itself as painful. It seems to me that the effect of losing grace is to become more and more human, but that wouldn't be painful. Or maybe that's what happens when the grace is not the owners

Maybe just the usual everyday amount of human pain registers as extremely painful to angels who haven't experienced it before?

I like that. But I don't think that was where they were going.

I can't begin to parse it, because I'm so influenced by fic, which basically equated losing grace to becoming more human. Needing sleep, needing to shave, shit, becoming more enslaved to bodily needs. This exhaustion is new and inexplicable to me. It seems like Show is equating "losing one's grace" with dying from sleeplessness (which, now that I think of it, was what Sam almost died of that one time when he was remembering Hell).

We've seen Cas been "simply" human after having had his grace removed, and there was no pain involved. I think this time, the pain, the exhaustion, the dying, was related to how it was acquired.

For that matter, Metatron talked as if the removal of Cas' grace somehow imbued him with a human soul-the former expected to see the latter again in Heaven after life as a human and hear his stories.