I think they are all dead.

I got the impression that the Men of Letters as a group was gone, but I'm still not sure how far-reaching they were in the first place. Were they a kind of Watcher's Council, worldwide? Or one specific group that was more like a fraternity chapter, with no actual overseeing fraternity?

I think its a great addition to the canon, and I'd love to see more of it. Or see Sam and Dean resurrecting it. But I think (and could obviously be wrong) that if they toss that key away the way they're supposed to, all the links back to the Men of Letters and their work will be gone.

Well, I hope at least tossing away the key is an episode (as opposed to asking Cas to fly it there next time he shows up--and did Abaddon actually take that piece of paper off Sam? Would it be a place she knew about anyway? Did he have a chance to memorise it? How handy of the blind guy to convey it that way...)

I'm voting on more Letters, even if they have to resurrect it. Going to hide/destroy Dawnthe Key and being stopped for some reason could also lead to...stuff. I will double down on trying to stay unspoiled now, because I like guessing.

And, since hunters (or Hunters) came over from England, I'm going to also ponder the idea of Men of Letters (maybe that's their problem--bringing a Woman of Letters ruined their fun) being at least Anglo-international.

Oh, the pictures I'm spinning in my head...

True -- a Campbell was on the Mayflower! But it's still a chicken-and-egg question -- did some academic type learn of hunters and think they should have a sort of library of knowledge at their disposal, or were academics compiling this stuff and some of them (or related people) went off and tried to take care of some of the nastier threats?

I think that's entirely up in the air, Amy--I can't think of anything that would determine Letters first, hunters first, or them springing up separately and meeting, or having been one group that split. And I can't really decide between those scenarios in terms of implications for the story and the universe.

I'm gonna roll that around a bit.

So...John refers to "family of mechanics" and "the old man" in The Song Remains The Same, ergo the writers are careless and talentless and don't care about their franchise.

Now, I think that every show should have a bible, and every deviation from the bible should be deliberate, you know, sometimes they do just say "fuck it--I want it this way--this is more important". And sometimes they don't have any idea, and aren't going to do the legwork to make sure. Thing is, we have no idea which yet. And when we do know which, what difference does it make?

You can wank around either one of them--I don't understand why it's such a deal.

I wonder where the balance between "Dad had his issues, okay, but he was always there for us." and "He's always missing, and he's always fine."/"Deadbeat dad" is. However, I will clutch greedily onto the first when I'm reading the next Abusive Drunken Abandoning Father Made Me A Self-Hating Gay story. Which apparently is preferable to stopping reading, but whatevs.

well, for me, I don't mind if writers decide to change the story after several years. This is exactly what happened with Fringe it seems to me. I am happy to find reasons for the benefit of the doubt.

However, I don't want to be committed to a series where the creators are in the "Lost" or (worst yet) "Battlestar Galactica" camp. I somehow felt okay with how "Lost" ended up despite the other than ideal developments during the series run. BSG has left me embittered.

What I want is a general idea that they have a plan and a general end point in mind, even if we go off on side trips and funny eps, and stuff. I read an interview with the showrunner where he was asked (after this ep was seen by the interviewer) if there was going to be an ep about John's mother (spoiler text for answer though there isn't much information. his response was: oh, we haven't thought about it. Maybe it will occur to us as we plot out next season.

And my response is: WTF?

I enjoy the series, but my expectations about plot and each season's plot being related to canon in any tight way have been dashed.

If Grandma Winchester doesn't affect the season's plot, why do they need to know if they're writing her in a long time beforehand?

I don't know if any shows are going to live up to your expectations in the writers' room.

well, if they are putting together a larger mythology that involved John's father (and by mention his grandfather and great-grandfather), I would have thought there might be some thought to his mother in there.

I don't think that everything needs to be completely thought out, but this show is going to be retconned all over the place.

The easy explanation would be that John's mother's father, or brother, was a mechanic. Or that was a shorthand he used because he didn't want to talk about his dad walking out on them.

I mean, is it a little lazy? Sure. Any references to his family should have been checked, at least so they could make sure it all lines up. But in this case it doesn't bug me.

Also, I liked the episode a lot better than a throwaway line from just one scene one time.

I wonder where the balance between "Dad had his issues, okay, but he was always there for us." and "He's always missing, and he's always fine."/"Deadbeat dad" is.

It's always been clear for me personally, and maybe that has to do with being a parent? I don't know.

But while stuff like the Christmas episode makes it clear John didn't make a huge effort for holidays, and didn't always show up on time, and wasn't real concerned with what the boys wanted as much as what he wanted for them, he loved them.

Yes, he left them in places he thought would be safe (enough) but he then added his own precautions. He made sure they were schooled (up to the point where every parent doesn't have a choice anymore). He instilled values in them, and we all know you can't exactly judge whose values are right or wrong. His were family loyalty, a sense of civic duty in an are not many others even knew existed, hard work, and a kind of stoicism.

So, yes, more like soldiers than children, but there are folks out there doing that for less honorable reasons, too.