I'm not sure I understand the question.

Okay, I need to dl so I can recall exactly / quote Cas' appearing in front of Naomi.

But, honestly, if Naomi hadn't happened, how do you expect he'd have answered that question?

I think he does stay hanging out with the Winchesters. But as a (admittedly traumatized) angel who missed tv but still recites the names of prophets along with Sam because all angels know that list of names. He'd stay, but would he suddenly want to become a "hunter" and play bad cop? That is where I see what I call him doing another's will and not making all of his own choices.

Huh, talking about this is making me care more than I did on my first viewing.

Oh and I loved Cas versus Crowley when we saw his wings again. He's an angel. That's cool to me. Cas trying to learn to be a hunter will be fun, I am sure. But I love when we are reminded that this guy is an angel with wings and power that are squished into something that looks human.

There wasn't a version of the "Where am I?" "Don't you know?" "I've never been here before." between Naomi and Cas?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

I was paraphrasing (because I was going from memory) the "Hello, Castiel." "Where am I?" "You don't know?" part that ends with "I've never been here before." when Cas appears in Naomi's office.

The "You don't know?" combined with what comes later doesn't make me 100% sure that he's never been there before. Just that he doesn't remember.

Between that and "Tell me about Sam and Dean." "[tells about Sam and Dean.] Why am I telling you any of this?" "That's not your concern. Help the Winchesters. Come when they call. You will report in to me regularly and you will never remember having done so." "No, I won't do that." *Naomi smirks* "Now, as you were."?

He gives a report on Sam and Dean even though he doesn't understand why he's even telling Naomi this information. He says he won't report back to her when it seems like, yeah, he's going to whether he wants to or not. And he doesn't remember being in Naomi's office this time.

All I am saying is that I don't think Cas has total free will happening right now.

Cas got orders to stay with Sam and Dean and help them. Which, to me, indicates that he's never before been ordered to stay with Sam and Dean.

Or that he doesn't remember. Like he doesn't remember being whisked away to Naomi's midconversation. I'm not really invested currently in whether this was absolutely the first time Naomi controlled his actions or motivations.

We opened this season being led to believe that Cas didn't make it out of Purgatory and went down fighting a fight he couldn't survive according to Dean. That's not what we're shown now. I am okay with the narrative evolving.

He'd stay, but would he suddenly want to become a "hunter" and play bad cop? That is where I see what I call him doing another's will and not making all of his own choices.

In this show, if you accept that Cas is going to the Winchesters, is Cas going to be a kept woman snacking on bon bons? The story is hunting. He's either doing that, or he's not in it.

I also have no real way to wrap my head around Cas on vacation, simply because it has no precedent. He has previously expressed a wish to be with the boys rather than doing heaven things, so the idea that he's doing it--it's like my boss telling me to go home at 5. Well, I was gonna anyway, but I don't consider myself coerced for any reasonable purpose.

Or that he doesn't remember

What's the point of giving him instructions that don't stick in some fashion? If she gave them to him before and he forgot them, then he's going to forget them this time too, and then it's free will all over again, isn't it?

Consider this scenario:

• Naomi meets Cas for the first time after he's rescued from Purgatory. She gives him instructions to find and shadow the Winchesters.
• He forgets, so she'll need to tell him again later.
• Free will.
• Profit?

Mine goes more like this:

• Naomi springs Cas from Purgatory, at great costs and angels are all over the place.
• Cas forgets the foofurrah.
• Cas tracks Dean and Sam down and starts working with them.
• Naomi gives Cas orders.
• Cas, under geas, never considers leaving Sam and Dean.

I don't really see a reason for a 1.1 where she gives him orders that she later repeats.

There is an immediate simple explanation for her giving him commands at the end of the ep, if we want to take the episode at face value, and that's how I'm going to read it. If they want to add to it later, I wouldn't even call it a retcon, though. Just that right now, him having been given the commands twice is as "not breaking the established rules" as him having had a group orgy with Naomi last time they met too. And just as necessary to the timeline, and important to his characterisation. No, we don't have information that contradicts it, but I also don't see the evidence from which to infer it.

I would also say that Naomi implying that Cas might possibly recognize where he is,that he's been there before, does not necessitate that she's also met him in similar circumstances and issued similar orders. Just that the location has been in Heaven for awhile. And maybe she's redecorated. It used to be the mailroom where prayers were sorted, and now, with Heaven in chaos after the not!Apocalypse and after Raphael failed to restart it and after Cas slaughtered a bunch of them, things got reorganized and the lesser angels have picked up the slack and started their own business.

Holy Dean/Cas, Batman! Never in a million years would I have thought Show would have allowed Dean to express the depth of his emotion for Cas, and it is tasty and nutritious.

I am sad for PizzaBoy!Angel, both what Crowley did to him, and what the writers did to him. I can get that the writers didn't want Cas to have long-standing sympathizers, but Crowley could have just killed him without breaking him, and we could have gotten another faceless dude . . . and then we wouldn't have cared as much if we didn't know he was such a sweetheart (like all the potential prophets that I didn't care about). But, yeah, that also irked, that Crowley captured an angel, but I think I could be talked into accepting it. After all, Alistair knew a spell to banish an angel, and since Lucifer had been an angel, he might have knowledge that could harm angels that only a select few (king of hell) would be allowed to know.

So, this ep was filial!conflict-free, and it was wonderful. Why, again, do the writers think that they need to create a reason to form a rift between the brothers? I've been bothered by this. Coupled with the thought that it is the strong bond between Sam and Dean, and the chemistry of Jensen and Jared, that make the show so appealing . . . why the need to create conflict between those two points? Not saying that conflict should or would never arise, but why force it? They are wonderful and wondrous when they are in sync, when they have each others backs. I know the sweet isn't as sweet without the sour, and too much strong brotheryly bond could lose it's appeal. But, Show is still, if not more so, enjoyable without the contrived conflict between them.

I will now resume searching for the screengrab of Dean looking beautfully angsty about Cas.

Two realizations.

is Cas going to be a kept woman snacking on bon bons?

I would totally watch a non-canonical or AU webisode based on this. I think Misha would have me howling with laughter.

The story is hunting. He's either doing that, or he's not in it.

We're reading the promo differently. This ep? Yeah, that's what I'd expect Cas to do when with the Winchesters. Next ep's promo? With Cas saying he's going to be a hunter and Sam and Dean both having wtf expressions on their faces and then Cas playing "bad cop" is not exactly what I'd expect from Cas.

So I am thumbs up on a bon bon eating kept Cas for a few minutes laughing. And we don't have the same take on the promo. But it's a promo, so it's not exactly the whole story.

What's the point of giving him instructions that don't stick in some fashion? If she gave them to him before and he forgot them, then he's going to forget them this time too, and then it's free will all over again, isn't it?

My guess was that, if it was happening, it resets when he gets bounced back to Naomi's. So new instructions each time. Maybe the same instructions partially, but reiterated. It took her ten seconds to give him instructions this time. And if he's not reset until he gets blipped back to Naomi, no free will. He's not forgetting, it's a reset.

Nothing in the ep demanded this but as a viewer, I got the impression that it might not be the first time Naomi summoned Cas. And I've been intensely into Avengers. Influencing someone without them realizing it seems at least possible to me. And Cas didn't seem to be totally going along with the meeting with Naomi. So, in my head, that's potentially a story. But it won't be a retcon if it happens or if it doesn't. It's just seeing where the story goes.

I'm rewatching bits and pieces, and "I did not leave you" has to be one of the most beautiful and heartbreaking lines I've heard come out of this show, and from Dean especially.

Man, that was an excellent episode!

I have thinky thoughts about Cas's free will status and how it relates to free will in general, but I think I'm going to have to gather more evidence (ie, watch the next episode, at least) before I can mash them into anything coherent.

My guess was that, if it was happening, it resets when he gets bounced back to Naomi's.

See, that's work. And although I love filling in the gaps with delicious might haves, since there's nothing in the text that requires or even implies a reset, then...I don't get the argument against him finding them under his own steam. There is no evidence, and I can't even find an implication that it was less than his choice. Nowhere onscreen or inbetween the lines.

Maybe the same instructions partially, but reiterated. It took her ten seconds to give him instructions this time. And if he's not reset until he gets blipped back to Naomi, no free will. He's not forgetting, it's a reset.

"This time"? I don't get where you're not assuming your position to support your position. There's a world of possibilities of what can happen between scenes, but unless there's evidence, it's just fun and headgames, likes the rampant brother-sexing that's happening now that they're not fighting. I mean, they didn't say they're not. Recently.

It's begging the question, not deducing.

or even implies a reset

Nothing absolutely requires it. The way Amanda Tapping played the scene, the way Misha played it and the promos for next week combine to imply to me that Cas is not exercising complete free will. I don't think I've ever said more than that.

I am filling the gaps to explain how the scene played out when I watched it. I don't claim it's canon or required. Much like I think there's more to Sam and Amelia than we've been told. Or that there were things Dean wasn't saying about Purgatory earlier. The way the scenes were presented made me think there was more to the story.

Naomi seemed way more knowing and both made Cas answer questions he didn't seem to want to answer and then told him he'd be reporting to her with these chats even though he didn't want to but wouldn't remember any of it. If another character compels your answers, gives you instructions to follow and take away your memories, I am going to believe that you do not totally have free will. And next week (two weeks, whenever) Cas is suddenly claiming he is a hunter and getting weird looks from both Winchesters and then playing bad cop quite poorly.

I'm not sure how this is a huge leap. It doesn't need to be everyone's leap but it's not terribly far from what I saw onscreen and, personally, can explain the edges that didn't make total sense when I watched those scenes.

Really, my only point is that I don't think Cas is operating with total free will. I don't think he is. And I think I've stated why.

The way Amanda Tapping played the scene, the way Misha played it and the promos for next week combine to imply to me that Cas is not exercising complete free will. I don't think I've ever said more than that.

But that right there? Is pretty much what's begging the question. It takes constructing reset rules to make it make sense, and that's shoddy writing...clearly they're capable of it, but if they wrote it well, it means something else. It seems pessimistic to go in assuming they forgot to give you all the information, no?

It's clear we have no middle ground, but I always end up feeling like I'm talking gibberish, so I'm gonna give it one more go, and then I'm good. But like I was saying--I don't see where in these lines Tapping is playing that-she's pleasant and businesslike the whole time, but I don't see any surprise at his blankness, or hear any stresses in her delivery that imply this is a repeat viewing for her, or knowing nods or gestures. And what did Cas do that suggested it? I mean, by definition, isn't he not going to do anything of the sort? Her suggestion that he might know the place seems just like she was expecting him to have been there before (as she notes that's rare) not like she expects him to remember it with her.

Naomi: Hello Castiel.
Castiel: Where am I?
Naomi: You don't know? You're home, Castiiel.
Castiel: Heaven? I've never been here before.
Naomi: Not many have. My name is Naomi. We rescued you.
Castiel: Purgatory.
Naomi: An incursion of angels which cost us many lives. Consider these chats your repayment.
Castiel: I don't understand.
Naomi: Tell me about Sam and Dean.
Castiel: The prophet is being kept safe. The tablet has split in two and the WInchesters are trying to recover the missing piece. Why am I telling you any of this?
Naomi: It's not your concern. Help the Winchesters. Come when they call. You will report in to me regularly and you will never remember having done so.
Castiel: No. I won't do that.
Naomi: Now, as you were. They won't even notice you were gone.

My opinion of the show in general, and this episode in specific (thanks, writers whose names I don't recognise), is that in that exchange there is 1 line that might be interpreted that this is a not-the-first-time thing, and all the rest read *perfectly* as if he'd never been in this room before. So, since the show hasn't introduced the concept, I'm not introducing the concept. That's their job, as a group, and they've been doing a pretty good job this whole ep. If they are trying to tell me this is "again", they are officially sucking.

As for implications from next week, all I've seen is a 45 second cut together snippet that involves Dean's face imprinted on a skillet...or something. I can deduce approximately *nothing* about anything from it. I will wait until a sneak peek or perhaps the episode itself before trying to work out what anything in that ep means.

In the meanwhile, all I see in that snippet is them telling me "Cas has just been yanked up to a place he's never been before (not corrected) and he's been given instructions (that he will carry out despite not remembering, so it seems he has no instructions like those yet).

My emotional investment in other people seeing the same simple thing as me is remarkably low--I do get agitated when I feel I'm not explaining myself well, and I do need to let go of that.