Two realizations.

is Cas going to be a kept woman snacking on bon bons?

I would totally watch a non-canonical or AU webisode based on this. I think Misha would have me howling with laughter.

The story is hunting. He's either doing that, or he's not in it.

We're reading the promo differently. This ep? Yeah, that's what I'd expect Cas to do when with the Winchesters. Next ep's promo? With Cas saying he's going to be a hunter and Sam and Dean both having wtf expressions on their faces and then Cas playing "bad cop" is not exactly what I'd expect from Cas.

So I am thumbs up on a bon bon eating kept Cas for a few minutes laughing. And we don't have the same take on the promo. But it's a promo, so it's not exactly the whole story.

What's the point of giving him instructions that don't stick in some fashion? If she gave them to him before and he forgot them, then he's going to forget them this time too, and then it's free will all over again, isn't it?

My guess was that, if it was happening, it resets when he gets bounced back to Naomi's. So new instructions each time. Maybe the same instructions partially, but reiterated. It took her ten seconds to give him instructions this time. And if he's not reset until he gets blipped back to Naomi, no free will. He's not forgetting, it's a reset.

Nothing in the ep demanded this but as a viewer, I got the impression that it might not be the first time Naomi summoned Cas. And I've been intensely into Avengers. Influencing someone without them realizing it seems at least possible to me. And Cas didn't seem to be totally going along with the meeting with Naomi. So, in my head, that's potentially a story. But it won't be a retcon if it happens or if it doesn't. It's just seeing where the story goes.

I'm rewatching bits and pieces, and "I did not leave you" has to be one of the most beautiful and heartbreaking lines I've heard come out of this show, and from Dean especially.

Man, that was an excellent episode!

I have thinky thoughts about Cas's free will status and how it relates to free will in general, but I think I'm going to have to gather more evidence (ie, watch the next episode, at least) before I can mash them into anything coherent.

My guess was that, if it was happening, it resets when he gets bounced back to Naomi's.

See, that's work. And although I love filling in the gaps with delicious might haves, since there's nothing in the text that requires or even implies a reset, then...I don't get the argument against him finding them under his own steam. There is no evidence, and I can't even find an implication that it was less than his choice. Nowhere onscreen or inbetween the lines.

Maybe the same instructions partially, but reiterated. It took her ten seconds to give him instructions this time. And if he's not reset until he gets blipped back to Naomi, no free will. He's not forgetting, it's a reset.

"This time"? I don't get where you're not assuming your position to support your position. There's a world of possibilities of what can happen between scenes, but unless there's evidence, it's just fun and headgames, likes the rampant brother-sexing that's happening now that they're not fighting. I mean, they didn't say they're not. Recently.

It's begging the question, not deducing.

or even implies a reset

Nothing absolutely requires it. The way Amanda Tapping played the scene, the way Misha played it and the promos for next week combine to imply to me that Cas is not exercising complete free will. I don't think I've ever said more than that.

I am filling the gaps to explain how the scene played out when I watched it. I don't claim it's canon or required. Much like I think there's more to Sam and Amelia than we've been told. Or that there were things Dean wasn't saying about Purgatory earlier. The way the scenes were presented made me think there was more to the story.

Naomi seemed way more knowing and both made Cas answer questions he didn't seem to want to answer and then told him he'd be reporting to her with these chats even though he didn't want to but wouldn't remember any of it. If another character compels your answers, gives you instructions to follow and take away your memories, I am going to believe that you do not totally have free will. And next week (two weeks, whenever) Cas is suddenly claiming he is a hunter and getting weird looks from both Winchesters and then playing bad cop quite poorly.

I'm not sure how this is a huge leap. It doesn't need to be everyone's leap but it's not terribly far from what I saw onscreen and, personally, can explain the edges that didn't make total sense when I watched those scenes.

Really, my only point is that I don't think Cas is operating with total free will. I don't think he is. And I think I've stated why.

The way Amanda Tapping played the scene, the way Misha played it and the promos for next week combine to imply to me that Cas is not exercising complete free will. I don't think I've ever said more than that.

But that right there? Is pretty much what's begging the question. It takes constructing reset rules to make it make sense, and that's shoddy writing...clearly they're capable of it, but if they wrote it well, it means something else. It seems pessimistic to go in assuming they forgot to give you all the information, no?

It's clear we have no middle ground, but I always end up feeling like I'm talking gibberish, so I'm gonna give it one more go, and then I'm good. But like I was saying--I don't see where in these lines Tapping is playing that-she's pleasant and businesslike the whole time, but I don't see any surprise at his blankness, or hear any stresses in her delivery that imply this is a repeat viewing for her, or knowing nods or gestures. And what did Cas do that suggested it? I mean, by definition, isn't he not going to do anything of the sort? Her suggestion that he might know the place seems just like she was expecting him to have been there before (as she notes that's rare) not like she expects him to remember it with her.

Naomi: Hello Castiel.
Castiel: Where am I?
Naomi: You don't know? You're home, Castiiel.
Castiel: Heaven? I've never been here before.
Naomi: Not many have. My name is Naomi. We rescued you.
Castiel: Purgatory.
Naomi: An incursion of angels which cost us many lives. Consider these chats your repayment.
Castiel: I don't understand.
Naomi: Tell me about Sam and Dean.
Castiel: The prophet is being kept safe. The tablet has split in two and the WInchesters are trying to recover the missing piece. Why am I telling you any of this?
Naomi: It's not your concern. Help the Winchesters. Come when they call. You will report in to me regularly and you will never remember having done so.
Castiel: No. I won't do that.
Naomi: Now, as you were. They won't even notice you were gone.

My opinion of the show in general, and this episode in specific (thanks, writers whose names I don't recognise), is that in that exchange there is 1 line that might be interpreted that this is a not-the-first-time thing, and all the rest read *perfectly* as if he'd never been in this room before. So, since the show hasn't introduced the concept, I'm not introducing the concept. That's their job, as a group, and they've been doing a pretty good job this whole ep. If they are trying to tell me this is "again", they are officially sucking.

As for implications from next week, all I've seen is a 45 second cut together snippet that involves Dean's face imprinted on a skillet...or something. I can deduce approximately *nothing* about anything from it. I will wait until a sneak peek or perhaps the episode itself before trying to work out what anything in that ep means.

In the meanwhile, all I see in that snippet is them telling me "Cas has just been yanked up to a place he's never been before (not corrected) and he's been given instructions (that he will carry out despite not remembering, so it seems he has no instructions like those yet).

My emotional investment in other people seeing the same simple thing as me is remarkably low--I do get agitated when I feel I'm not explaining myself well, and I do need to let go of that.

My emotional investment in other people seeing the same simple thing as me is remarkably low--I do get agitated when I feel I'm not explaining myself well, and I do need to let go of that.

I think we're both at the same place. Not explaining ourselves in a way that the other understands and not able to just let it go.

There is just something totally frustrating to me about feeling like I'm not effectively communicating. Or communicating at all. So I want to keep going until I at least am sure we're talking about the same thing. My investment in that is unhealthily high.

Okay, letting it go.

Ugh. Finally an asshole John story where he's not an asshole by the end (I still resent the implications), and a major character death that wasn't Team Free Will or even a Winchester, but was really still an important person.

Sometimes when they tag minor character death I find myself oddly defensive of the character that bites it. She says, sensitively.

I waded through a horrid BB that had a deaf Dean and John was abusive to Dean even when Mary was alive and Sam was sleeping with Becky. It was awful, I don't know why I stuck with it.

Scaramouche's was interesting and had a fresh twist (pulling a Cas who had just pulled Dean out of Hell but hadn't met him in Jimmy's body yet, and throwing him into the end of season 7).

Am currently reading one where everyone is a god or an angel or something, Cas hasn't showed up yet by chapter 3, but it's really good. There's a quiet unfurling to it.

I read a fic a couple weeks back, mostly on my phone, and I hadn't noticed the tags until I was home on the computer and finally noticed the warning for MAJOR CHARACTER DEATH!!!1! So by that point I had to finish it even though I didn't want to, and skimmed the rest of the fic, terrified about who was going to bite it. And . . . no one did, and I could only think that it was a canon character death that had occured earlier in the story. WHY YOU DO THIS TO ME?!

I really think canon character deaths are different. And I know that makes it seem like killing anyone is okay, but although I'm sad if Sam dies at Jake's hands after having spent some time with Dean (even without resurrection), it's a little less sad than dying of cancer or AIDS or something really random.

I feel like I've done the grunt work on that grieving already, and it''s a weirdly familiar place.

I actually commented on an IO9 review--first of the season--but I was going in there and if she didn't like it...I don't even...hmmph.

She liked it.