I forgot about vampirates! Love that.

My memory of the first episode is that Sam defended himself and his choices, and that he's still doing so. I hate the choices, and hate the idea he might have to back down on anything and admit Dean was right (in this can they at least meet at .middle ground?), but things like the explanation that started out with "I hit a dog" and his insistence that something out there (specific or general, dunno, thanks writers for vagueing it up) is better than most of the rest of his life.

I think he's sticking to his right to quit hunting, and with that to not been there for Kevin, although he's in it now to close Hell. I mean--yelling at Dean about almost killing Mrs. Tran when he left Kevin unguarded for up to a year? Crowley didn't have to have access to her meatsuit in the first place.

I think he should stand by the strength of his convictions. I just wish they'd written him different convictions.

Waht bugs me is that they could have got to same plot place witout this portrayal of Sam

But they clearly want to be at this emotional place so your examples are useless to the writers room. I'm pretty sure the things that take place are secondary to how everyone feels (especially Sam and Dean) about each other. They want precisely this rift.

So there's no need to be bugged. You're writing an entirely different story--it's apples and elbows.

I don't think we're disagreeing, although I've sort of forgotten the original question now. I think it's reasonable for Sam to feel guilty about Dean being in purgatory for a year and still defend his choice to quit hunting.

And I think Dean especially is perfectly sympathetic in his disappointment and betrayal, because he's never run away, he's never gone off to school, he's never quit hunting -- and even when Sam told him not to, he was still trying to spring Sam from the cage.

For me, though, Sam's decision was understandable, even if it wasn't the best choice *with regard to other people*.

I don't get his motivation for not trying to find Dean at all, honestly. Or I guess I don't want to get it, and I should suck it up and stop whining because canon is canon. Either canon will have him letting down Dean (again) and I'll be mad at that, or he'll have made a right decision and I'll be mad at that. I don't see a good way out of this, but the season's not done yet--let's see if they say something new. Because with what's in evidence now, nope. Don't like.

The part where he cut himself off from people like Kevin or Sheriff Mills who might have come to him as a sort of friend needing help. That's not hero Sam either, and I don't want to watch the story of reluctant hero Sam and his big, always right brother Dean.

I don't get his motivation for not trying to find Dean at all, honestly. Or I guess I don't want to get it, and I should suck it up and stop whining because canon is canon. Either canon will have him letting down Dean (again) and I'll be mad at that, or he'll have made a right decision and I'll be mad at that. I don't see a good way out of this, but the season's not done yet--let's see if they say something new. Because with what's in evidence now, nope. Don't like.

This is pretty much how I am feeling.

Even with no real idea where to start? I feel like the Sam we've known would have some options to try and start looking. Might not have found Dean, might not have rescued him, but he'd have tried.

Sam having a mental breakdown would not be able to try, but that's not the guy I've been watching for years.

Alternately soulless Sam could have run the odds, looked at the facts and not looked for Dean. But we've been there and he's reensouled so I am pretty sure we're not going back there.

I'm watching to see where we go from here hoping that there is a plan in the writing room. That final scene was good. I really wasn't sure how it was going to go down and several options would have been believable to me. That's the show I want to see.

I don't think he cut himself off from Kevin, since he thought Crowley had him and probably assumed Kevin wouldn't be checking in from Crowley's lair. But Sheriff Mills, yeah.

I don't know why this isn't a problem for me. I get that it's not the most heroic thing to do, but I also get that this is the one life he has, and it's pretty consistently bloody and shitty and painful since day one. The chance to just stop, and eat organic apples from the farmer's market and fix ice machines and walk a dog, must have seemed so tempting. I can see how there's willful denial there, too, instead of simply being clueless, but it's weirdly okay with me.

If Sam were a real person, even one I didn't care about, I'd totally support his choices.

Instead it's a fictional character's choices I'm responding to, but one I'm disproportionately attached to. So while there's no real good chance he'd want to keep doing this, I want him to fictionally want to do it, and then I'd feel less like I was watching guilt tripping or non con. Or maybe it'll be the same Sam who said "Every time I left you it was wrong!" and Dean and the text just sat there and nodded and it wasn't! Sam made a perfectly legit higher learning decision, and I hate that the text is playing into Dean still giving him grief for that.

I mean, I've defended Sam's Heaven choices which were all away from his family, and I feel like I can't do that so much anymore. The times he gets headstrong, he's often leaving.

And I tuned in for the epic love story of Sam and Dean, not the epic emotional blackmail of Sam by Dean. Or Dean as the Littlest Hobo/David Banner, crisscrossing the country, never putting down roots, and teaching meaningful lessons wherever he helps someone.

Unrelatedly I also need notes so I can put down things like: DOESN'T WARN FOR MAJOR CHARACTER DEATH. Come on, be nice. That was just shitty and I feel shitty and I am not finishing the story.

If Sam were a real person, even one I didn't care about, I'd totally support his choices.

Well sure. But I like their fairly emotionally unhealthy and crippled dynamic. That's what I tune in to watch.

Saving people, hunting things, the family business is not the long-term happiness road and the retirement benefits don't exist. It's usually not a road even leads to long-term breathing. But it's fascinating to watch.

I want my humans to make healthy, good choices. I want my fictional people to do the rest.

I forgot about vampirates! Love that.

That whole exchange was great. "It's the third thing you say!" "No, it's not."

I don't have a dog in the meatier discussion y'all are having, just wanted to chime in on the vampirates.

I hated the "third thing you say" because we will never know the first two. ::shakes fist at sky::