I mean, honestly--how can you change Hell to irritating and boring? If Sam hadn't been locked in with Lucifer and Michael, it might not have been that bad. Lucifer knows how to bring it. But what Dean went through simply isn't there any more. They've taken away one of the extremes--it's not just Crowley that's changed, it's the universe.

I think Crowley might be going for an existential Hell that's more maddening in the long run, but far less traumatic in the short run. I can see how pain and torture might be something you'd get desensitized to over the decades, but boredom's not going to get less objectionable as one heads off toward eternity.

A full fledged universe without a hell that's bad is lame to me.

Oh, I can see feeling that way. But for me, if hell's not really an issue at the moment, it just doesn't matter much.

When it comes down to it, I think Joss trained me well enough that all of that stuff is metaphor to me from the get-go, so once it's lost its usefulness to a particular plot arc, it's fine with me to let it go.

I mean, honestly--how can you change Hell to irritating and boring?

Make it a never-ending Monday staff meeting.

But for me, if hell's not really an issue at the moment, it just doesn't matter much.

Hell's an issue every time they deal with a demon or Crowley, and that's likely to not be that rarely. It's an issue every time I consider the world of Supernatural, which is, like, all the time. There's no balance. The world building is broken for me.

I can see how pain and torture might be something you'd get desensitized to over the decades, but boredom's not going to get less objectionable as one heads off toward eternity.

Yeah, I'm not of that school of thought. Ten years of boredom is probably remarkably similar to five hundred. I'm only working on four or five years of chronic pain, but it's nothing compared to hell and I've been tempted to stick a knife into my leg for a change of scenery. I know it was supposed to be all cute and revolutionary and "how forward thinking is this???" but it's precisely what you don't like about the Leviathans (and I do, for max irony) I feel. Hell is no place for a late 20th century affectation (while Earth is precisely the place for that sort of attack). I think Dante and his ilk did a pretty good job laying things out, and the big decisions are hot vs. cold and hunger vs. thirst and rape vs. mutilation.

I don't know--I guess your back hurts really bad and your knees get stiff? Is there a rule against striking up conversation? Stepping out of line? How will I get punished? Sent further back in line? What's the escalation? How do you break someone? How do you reward someone and make them your lieutenant?

As long as we have a character that rules hell, other characters that either want to go there or don't want to go there, it needs to work for me. I don't have spoilers to hand, but internet dollars to Krispy Kremes, Crowley will be around next season, and hopefully Meg, and if they bring a taint of a useless hell with them, then it's on topic.

The world building is broken for me.

I get that. I'm sorry.

Oh, and Joss only trained me for metaphors in his show. I wish he'd combined his deft hand with those with a dog-eared show bible, but such are things.

I feel that Kripke used much less of that in his storytelling, and did more literal "here's yer rip-roaring story". Which is another reason one might choose to not stick to a story bible, but changing Hell seems to have had two reasons for me: a) a quick laugh b) an indication that Crowley's not as tarnished nor as tarnishing as what preceded him, so the taint of association does not preclude redemption.

If there was an intention for a third effect--to show that this is a new and improved brand of leader, it worked up to a point but it didn't show me that he was a good leader, or an evil one, both of which his predecessors seemed to manage better--what he has over them is not underestimating the Winchesters, that's all. And when the devil's not evil, what is going on?

I mean, you say if the boys aren't going to hell, then what hell is like doesn't matter. Doesn't who Crowley is matter as long as he is on the show? I get if you say that you don't think what he did to hell ruined it, but I don't get it when you say it's not on the show anymore. It's him.

This picture will spoil you for the identity of a guest actor, but there's no plot other than the boys don suits at some point in S8, and Sam's hair brushes his shoulders, but SHE'S SO SMALL: [link] . She's like a whole size smaller than just Jensen, never mind the moose.

Actually, Jensen is weirdly big in that picture.

I don't know who she is, but she's adorable. And man, they both look enormous there.

Dammit! I can't find my I FUCKING LOVE SUPERNATURAL baby GIF.

None of you guys would happen to know what I'm talking about? And the baby's wearing plaid...

No clue.