Dean doesn't think of him as most of the things he is--marvellous guy, out of control alcoholic, worthwhile human being, smart, saviour...yet another reason I can't get enough of him. And I love Sam because his mission is to see himself and his world as clearly as possible, but he has Lucifer in his head directly manipulating what he was getting pretty good at...so long ago.

Merry unattached drifter Christmas, kids!

eta, much later: this is a great V-Day manip.

Both of them would have had at least one Valentine's Day with a significant other -- Sam with Jess and Dean with Lisa. I wonder how they would have celebrated, if they did.

We don't know how long Sam was with Jess, right? But if Dean gets him in September and he's thinking marriage, there's got to be at least one Valentine's Day in there. For some reason, I think his first V-Day with her would be a big deal, but I'm sure he had chicks he wanted to give cards to earlier, whether or not he did.

Dean, on the other hand, has no doubt had a life of avoiding observing the day.

Sometimes I like to think he was serious about one person, once, earlier than Sam would ever have noticed, and that's when he learnt how badly their itinerant lifestyle worked with that. Could have been a boy or a girl. I'm really not picky. Once bitten, twice shy--one of my favourite Dean flavours (although they're all pretty tasty).

How much did you guys hate End!Dean? The Endverse fic has him as such a complete and royal amoral/vicious bastard, but I kinda read him as grumpy and torturing, but hey! Stuff happens. His brother is hosting Lucifer. I might have been blind with current Dean when I was looking at him, as well as reeling at End!Cas.

It seems pretty common in Endverse D/C to posit that Cas's condition is a result of Dean losing his humanity as Cas gained his. Outside of that ship, how low is he seen to have gone?

(There is also a slice of fic where the only humanity he has left in in Cas' bed)

In my head, Sam uses Valentine's Day to make up for not liking Halloween, and going all out for Jess, but in that charming, homemade way, like baking cupcakes for her, and picking flowers, and bringing her breakfast in bed.

Sometimes I like to think he was serious about one person, once, earlier than Sam would ever have noticed, and that's when he learnt how badly their itinerant lifestyle worked with that.

Before Cassie, you mean?

I can see very young Dean (like, fifteen or sixteen) totally falling in love, hard.

How much did you guys hate End!Dean?

I forgot to answer this one.

I didn't hate him at all. I wanted to hug him and cuddle him and give him soup and stuff. He was so broken, but to me it came across as not naturally hardened (although there was some of that) so much as steeling himself against emotion, because it would all hurt too much.

I can see very young Dean (like, fifteen or sixteen) totally falling in love, hard.

I'd make him younger than that--early enough that it's probably not "real", so that by the time he's fifteen or so, he's fully in defensive Lothario mode. Maybe he has a crush at 12 or 13, and is stereotypically Sammy-sappy, and gets hit really hard (I can't decide where to lay the blame--is it all on them moving, ergo eventually John, or does he get judged based on appearances, and decides to make appearances true?), so he slides into exactly what he's capable of, twisting targets around his finger without letting him into his heart.

But not dickishly! Consensually.

it came across as not naturally hardened (although there was some of that) so much as steeling himself against emotion, because it would all hurt too much.

I'm guessing that some people found the torture a point of no return (no pun or correlation intended), but I'm abashed to say I didn't consider it a complete ruination of his character.

tiggy, I stole this from your Facebook feed: [link]

Oh, DEAN. Of course we should.

I'd make him younger than that--early enough that it's probably not "real", so that by the time he's fifteen or so, he's fully in defensive Lothario mode.

That young, it's so not real that I don't know if you learn from it. It has to *feel* real, I think. So maybe an older thirteen or fourteen.

Since the End!verse came after Dean was rescued from hell, the torture didn't surprise me. Or sadden me, really. Maybe it should have, I guess.

it's so not real that I don't know if you learn from it.

In my head, he's getting the rejection lesson before he has learnt the love lesson, so he protects himself from ever actually loving as long as possible, proactively. So he's young, naive, hopeful, and somehow shut down and excluded from affairs of the heart when he's too young to understand how important they might be, and the walls come up early.

It's not even really learning, in my head. It's getting scared, good and early.

Man, I read an odd D/C endverse fic that was really D/D with voyeur C. Somehow they almost managed to pass off Dean's narcissism (getting pretty literal with the term) as normal curiosity. With the balance of how much he's changed in that time too.

I feel vindicated in Dean torturing with reasonably little hesitation later, but I think the original positions of the ficcers were that he was even less likely to torture after Hell, because of the trauma associated with being expert at it and needing to be rescued. Shame of the fallen Righteous Man. Valid point, but not what occurred to me at the time.

Seriously, did I miss the IO9 recap? They've recapped Monday shows, but not Supernatural? The fuck?? I can only believe I scrolled past it. That's ridic. Or maybe Annalee hasn't posted recently? I don't always check bylines.

No, I've been checking and I don't think she posted one.