My fear in that case is that the writers would try to keep Sam redeemable by pulling the "the demon blood made him do it," and that would piss me off in much the same way the "magic is crack" storyline in Buffy Season Six pissed me off.

Yes, THIS.

I can see Sam being responsible in some way, though. Not getting there in time to save him because he's off being dark!Sam, or whatever.

Either way, one or both of the boys has to be able to feel guilty about it to make it resonate.

My working denial theory: Harper's Island is canceled. Bobby lives. Dean kills Ruby. Season 5 rift commences.

I AM A DELICATE FLOWER. I CAN ONLY TAKE SO MUCH PAIN.

Or something.

::clutches boys to chest::

Amy, somehow I doubt that your clutching intentions are completely for the benefit of the *boys.*

My fear in that case is that the writers would try to keep Sam redeemable by pulling the "the demon blood made him do it," and that would piss me off in much the same way the "magic is crack" storyline in Buffy Season Six pissed me off.

I'm not entirely afraid of it. I can see the attempts to detox him leading to an Incident where Bobby gets put into a pie my Mrs McGregor, which would perhaps fall under that category, but they've been pretty clear from the beginning of the show that this is a world where people do awful things on that primrose path of good intentions, and that even if you WERE NOT responsible, there's still guilt. They don't really follow the get out of jail free he has a soul now pattern that Certain Shows did.

(They're more like Angel [nods to Suela] in that regard. Room full of lawyers, alienation, grim grim grim vs. the yellow crayon.)

I hope they're more like Angel. That's my operating assumption, anyway; certainly the theology we've seen doesn't seem to indicate that absolution comes easily. I think whatever redemption either of them get has to be earned.

Dean's been trying to earn it, this season, although it seems kind of by-the-numbers for him. Although it does kind of remind me of season 2, when Sam was all, "I must save people or I will go evil." Sam's not worrying about that, anymore.

But yeah, Angel, not Buffy. Though to be fair, there was some angst and struggle for Willow, although we never got the sense she felt the way Faith had about what she had done.

Oh the Faith angst. That was good angst.

John dies -> Sam dies -> Dean dies -> EVERYONE dies

Yeah, that's escalation I can believe in.

True, except my theory involves Sam killing Bobby.

That would certainly be chock full of emotional impact but I'm just not feeling like that would be satisfying to me. If it does go down that way, it certainly could be, but I don't know.

Fuckadoodledoo.

I totally accept the logic of Bobby dying, although it had not crossed my mind until two minutes ago.

DO NOT WANT!

...except - I'd rather have the show make good on its potential, and not pull its punches, and break my heart. And yet at the same time I want to wrap all the characters up in cotton wool and hide them somewhere safe, with pie.

And he's totally going to find a nice woman and grab a little sugar from time to time. Which is exactly what he would call it, bless him

Ellen. It should be Ellen.

I hope that, if Bobby does bite the dust, we at least get a little bit of Ellen and/or Jo. Although at the same time I want to keep Ellen and Jo FAR AWAY FROM THE WINCHESTERS, nice and safe in that Witness Protection Scheme.

Which also plays into the whole coming-of-age theme of the show: they have to learn to stand on their own, do their own work, make their own choices--so long as Bobby's there fixing things for them, they're not full adults under the terms of the narrative.

I'm a little bit tired of the only narrative shorthand for establishing parental independence being "dead parent figure." Lots of folks mature and establish their own identity without having dead parents.

And he's going to be feeling utterly betrayed by Dean and Bobby.

But see, we've also seen him expressing regret about what he feels he has to do to... the author dude, memfault on his name. He's not excited about what he's doing, I think they're going to portray it as more of a physical addiction, which means maybe he would be more receptive to getting him off the sauce, if someone can provide a viable alternative on how they can defeat Lillith.

My fear in that case is that the writers would try to keep Sam redeemable by pulling the "the demon blood made him do it," and that would piss me off in much the same way the "magic is crack" storyline in Buffy Season Six pissed me off.

Anne is me. This storyline is already treading a fine line with me, what with him jonesing out next to the pop machine. If we're gonna blame it on the sauce, to me that's going to feel like a wasted death for Bobby.

Honestly, given the mythology that the show is drawing from, I don't think we've seen Heaven's full hand yet. Like the residents of Hell, I see there being different, possibly contrary goals at work. I think we don't know the full extent of Dean's reason for being pulled out of Hell, and I kind of think it would be awesome if no one really knew until Dean took an opportunity presented to him and its consequences have unexpected, awesome results.

Ellen. It should be Ellen.

Ohh, Bobby/Ellen, my super-secret double probation OTP.