Thanks Amy.

Loving the discussion.

Oh thank god. I didn't want to be looking at you sideways.

I'd like to think that Sam was cutting off a huge part of himself with establishing a life in college and with Jess. It could have been successful. Depends on the person. But I think in this 'verse, Sam would have been deluding himself for only so long.

Sam was cutting off too much, IMO. Just looking at him looking at Dean in this past episode--I don't think he could have gotten married, had kids, moved somewhere new, without bringing at least Dean up. And even if Jess was an angel and didn't press, that house of cards would not stand.

I'm trying to work out if Dean could have been more successful with Lisa, if Sam had never come back. Well, alcoholism was a given, so that caps that. But at least she knew. And at least he thought he couldn't get Sam back. Sam would have had a lurking Dean forever.

Well, alcoholism was a given, so that caps that.

Some alcoholics do quit, though. Another year, and he's that much more removed from Sam (if he hadn't returned), and he's that much more involved with Ben and Lisa, he might not have needed it so much, and he might have considered AA or whatever.

The thing for me with Dean is, he commits. There's a lot of black and white in Dean's worldview. It's just that with Sam in the picture, Sam is usually the whole picture. But think about how committed he's always been to taking care of Sam, to fulfilling his father's expectations. If he decided to throw in for good with Lisa and Ben (no matter what the motivation), I could see him choosing to stop drinking and really doing it.

If he decided to throw in for good with Lisa and Ben (no matter what the motivation), I could see him choosing to stop drinking and really doing it.

I think he had thrown in for good, though. That he didn't seriously think Sam was going to come back, that he wasn't medicating until things changed.

I guess what I got from their conversation was that Dean had already stopped drinking as badly as he was initially, but that it was still notable drinking. For me it felt status quo. Like that was all the man he could be, and that the next change of emotional status would be giving up, not growing.

Dean's been drinking like it's normal probably since he was a teenager. He was drinking like it was a lifeline for the past few years. If they magically cure that I will make retchy noises. Anything short of "Liver failure! You must desist!" it's going to be hard to convince me.

Sam, sure, he can quit drinking, but does he really need to?

I think Sam drinks out of habit, and only once in a while when he's pissed and wants to get drunk.

I don't want them to magically fix anything for Dean. I love his damage. God, that feels wrong to say. If he were a real person, he probably would be howling in a nuthouse somewhere.

I love Dean's damage too. It's part of the reason I don't ship Dean/Lisa, despite liking her. Damaged D/C works for me in broken little happily ever after of unhealthy sorts, but damaged D/L I find skeevy and unappealing. Don't do that shit with a woman who's trying to lead a mundane life, much less a kid. Just no.

Sam could find a woman who'd let him hunt (Sarah) and work off his perceived debts and be that relatively healthy. I kinda want Dean living in the same house. Or next door. Or it could be a duplex. Somewhere he can drink and then come over and play with the kids. And Team Free Will still hunts together.

Sam could find a woman who'd let him hunt (Sarah) and work off his perceived debts and be that relatively healthy. I kinda want Dean living in the same house. Or next door. Or it could be a duplex. Somewhere he can drink and then come over and play with the kids. And Team Free Will still hunts together.

Your gooey center is showing. And I agree with every word.

He's still no good to be a daddy! But he's a great uncle to his nieces, Mary Jo and Ellen. And him and Cas just work around their unworkables and find peace with each other.

And shoot and smite shit. Booyah!

Speaking of future: TFW TNG I don't think I'm that interested in the fic, in general, but I'm fascinated by the art.