Oh Fay, thank you so much for bringing the Sam-love. I've read too much fanfic of late that runs in the "Sam is selfish, and all of Dean's emotional problems are caused by him" vein. Seriously -- it seems like I keep finding story after story of poor insecure, vulnerable Dean. And it's all Sam's fault because he left Dean, abandoned him to go away to college. And I keep wanting to talk to these authors, and ask why it supposedly was wrong for Sam to leave and pursue the life he wanted, but it wouldn't have been wrong to expect him to stay in one he didn't. Really - subjugating everything he wanted, denying the future he wanted, and exist in unhappiness pursuing his father's vengeance, all of that would be okay. Because even though Sam would be miserable, Dean would be happy. (Not to mention that Dean, although God yes I agree that he is damaged, is a strong character in his own right. He made his own choices, and putting all of his emotional development on Sam is belittling his strength.)

That dovetails with another thing that irks me (oh, I am full of irk today), which is people who insist Sam was sheltered and/or somehow inefficient as a hunter prior to the Stanford years. First of all, when we see him in the Christmas episode learning about his father, he was what - 8? Which gives him a solid 10 years of knowing what was going on. And I cannot even possibly imagine a boy growing up with John and Dean, especially one as smart as Sam, and remaining naive and sheltered. And I don't remember ever hearing that Sam was inadequate as a hunter -- just that he didn't want that to be his life.

And I will now retreat to the corner with my hotpacks and migraine drugs again, and continue to mutter at the walls.

First of all, when we see him in the Christmas episode learning about his father, he was what - 8? Which gives him a solid 10 years of knowing what was going on. And I cannot even possibly imagine a boy growing up with John and Dean, especially one as smart as Sam, and remaining naive and sheltered. And I don't remember ever hearing that Sam was inadequate as a hunter -- just that he didn't want that to be his life.

While I don't expect that he was inadequate as a hunter prior to leaving for Stanford, I do suspect, because of what we've been shown of the Winchester family dynamic, that he did enter active hunting later than Dean (so a decade or so of knowing what was going on, but perhaps only a couple of years of being brought along on hunts), and that, insofar as he could, given the screwed-up munge of maternal/fraternal in the Dean and Sam relationship, Dean sheltered him from as much as he could the best he could. Sam, being a smart boy and all, probably saw through a lot of that effort, but I don't think Sam could have got out of the life when he did without a certain amount of buffering from the Kool Aid.

Part of the appeal of the Winchester Brother Dynamic for me is that there is no choice either one of them could have made that would have fixed things, so Sam could have stayed, and Dean would have been less unhappy, but only until such a point as it became clear how miserable Sam really was in the life. Dean could have made choices earlier in his life (as it is implied that he had at least some desire to do in S1) to allow him to have a life outside of his family, but then there wouldn't have been that buffer there for Sam that allowed him to get out. I mean, the line about conjoined twins in Tall Tales isn't all that far off: separate them, and someone loses something, but keep them together, and it's almost as bad.

This may only make sense in my head.

No, I think you're on the right track. Being the people they've been since childhood, there doesn't seem to be a choice they had in the decisions they made.

Which argues for Chuck and predestination, doesn't it?

It's not that there weren't choices, it's just that from the moment Azazel caught Mary's scent, the choices have been bad and less bad. I think the jury's still out on how much of that is in the hands of fate.

The issue I have with the predestination angle is that if we go with the assumption that they really don't have a lot of impact on how their lives go, and that everything is going to happen regardless of their efforts, then Sam's use of his deeemonic powers is foretold and expected. He's supposed to use them, and all of Castiel's and Uriel's browbeating is kind of pointless. (Not to reach too far here, but it reminds me of the discussions around the so-called "Judas Gospel" -- that Judas isn't the irredeemable traitor he's always been portrayed, because he served a needed function. He HAD to turn Christ over to his enemies, so that the crucifixion could take place. If he hadn't, then Christ's purpose - dying so that mankind could be saved - would not have taken place.)

This whole discussion made me go watch God Says Nothing Back again.

Damn. That remains the best Sam-centric vid to this day, and wow, S4 Sam is *really* there in S1 Sam.

Wasn't there bickering/bitterness in S1 because Dean was a better soldier than Sam was? Most of that was family dynamics, of course, but I was left with the impression that Dean was also better at hunting skills than Sam was.

I think Sam just never put his heart and his interest into it, because he saw himself never needing it, he was getting out. He was never the hunter he could be, which was probably a match, or even better in some facets of the job, than Dean is. Was. Whichever.

GSNB has been running in my backbrain all day. Maybe that's why.

Dean was a better soldier than Sam

It's been too long since I've rewatched season 1, but I thought that was a sarcastic reference by Sam to Dean's unquestioning obedience to whatever John ordered. I don't recall it having any connection to actual abilities.

What Morgana said. Dean's a better foot-soldier; Sam's got more in the way of leadership skills.

OMG, Castiel asking Anna to tell him what to do - fuck, I do love the Dean-Castiel (or Dean/Castiel) dynamic. They're so well matched, bless 'em. They should totally be BFF. Or shag. Or both.

::hugs boys.

And, yes, I do feel very bad for Sammy, I really do. Yes, Dean is the Uberwoobie before which all other woobies bow down, poor bloke, but that doesn't mean one should slag Sammy off. Sammy is having a pretty shitty time of it too, and always has done, and, jings, After School Special killed me, mostly for Sammy - but for both of them (despite the distracting not-prettiness and not-likeableness of Not!Dean). Those poor kids. Damn it, John, you didn't do right by your boys - you may have been a Righteous Man, and a Hero, but that doesn't make for an ideal father. Alas.

::snuggles all Winchesters, including kickass Mary and her parents, and feeds them chicken soup::

Mind you, I do really, really wish that Sam would stop lying!!! And that someone would take him to one side and say: "Pride comes before a fall! And in this case, the fall in question? Would be Lucifer's. And you're going to end up being his meatsuit, if you don't try to put the breaks on NOW!"