Loved every inch of the meta.

So, am confused. An archangel did "appear" at the end, right? Even though we didn't see him/her? Or was the archangel *about* to appear and Lilith hit the road before the road hit her?

The opening meta kind of put me off despite not being a Wincest shipper - combo of too much winking at the viewers in general and the fact that I cringe whenever the protagonists of a show go into a comic shop and have Comic Book Guy geek out on them.

I'd have been a lot happier if the guys had just been horrified by their lives being on display in a series of NC-17 Harry Dresden-style novels and not made all the meta-commentary about internet fandom.

The meta was fine with me. All the crap the show takes (do this, no do this, how dare they did that), it was nice to see them dish it out a litte. Maybe even taken to a higher level, it doesn't matter what we cause an uproar about, because ultimately the writer is going to write his "vision" as dictated by the "creator."

They also addressed rape with the demon possession. I am guessing both for the meta and also for the characterization of Sam. Confined to this episode it didn't bother me because everything seemed to be side noted to the fans, but I hope that is the end of feeling the need to explain themselves on screen.

What I am finding interesting is how Rorschach this episode was to the fan base. It's not just love or hate. It's thinking loved things were emphasized, or hated things were emphasized, the making fun of #1 fans, the shipping, various beautiful cakes. For me the comments have been more interesting WHY something was loved or hated.

If I were a Dean/Sam shipper, I would have laughed at the show legitimizing it with an on screen acknowledgement. I didn't see where it makes it non-cannon. It made the boys thinking it was gross cannon, but surely that was already a given in the fics, and it opened room for plenty more fic. "Even though he knew it was wrong, Sam's mind kept going back to what was written on the page." Whatever.

It could have been right up there for me with favorite episodes until the ending. I was expecting some shocking or tragic revelation to really give it substance, like the Genie episode, or Tall Tales. Then I would have named it George. But instead they kept the meta contained to the MOTW and gave us a morality lesson that we, the fans, aren't writing the show. Which doesn't bother me, just expended energy and screen time on something I was already fine with knowing. For me that made it a funny little side episode, but probably not one that I will watch again and again. I can put it away and forget about it and go back into the fictional world where I was quite happy being just an observer.

Which doesn't bother me, just expended energy and screen time on something I was already fine with knowing. For me that made it a funny little side episode, but probably not one that I will watch again and again. I can put it away and forget about it and go back into the fictional world where I was quite happy being just an observer.

I think I'm getting there. Distance has dulled how appalled I was. I like my fictional characters inside the box, thanks. No, not the metaphorical box, the glowy box. Which is as often now the wall-mounted flat panel, I guess.

Oh, good. I was so sorry to see that it looked like your affection for the show had been shattered forever, because you were so fond of it! And I can understand the squick about the fourth wall...honestly, I don't know how it will hit me when I finally see it. I found Tanya Huff's Smoke and... stuff absofuckinglutely hilarious, with its look at vampire detective TV show fandom, but I did wince a little at the Avatar episode that took on fandom. I liked it, but in a cringey way. I loved Galaxy Quest, and Willow writing Doogie Howser fanfic, but did squirm a little sometimes at the way the Trio were the butt of jokes. (Although I loved Jonathan and came to love Andrew, which was kind of the problem.) So - I don't know how this will hit me when I see it, but I'm good with the concept.

Fay, I'm fascinated to hear you talk about how you don't see Dean/Sam but you're writing it. I mean, I have been known to write characters I didn't like in order to get into their heads, but I've never written a pairing I didn't at least see as a possibility. OTOH, I don't tend to write pairings, anyway.

I also have to admit that I was reading your genderswitch Dean but ... I had to stop, because incest of almost any variety isn't my beautiful cake.

Fay, I'm fascinated to hear you talk about how you don't see Dean/Sam but you're writing it. I mean, I have been known to write characters I didn't like in order to get into their heads, but I've never written a pairing I didn't at least see as a possibility. OTOH, I don't tend to write pairings, anyway.

From a writing standpoint, I got into the habit of writing pairings I didn't see as a possibility as a writing exercise back in Buffy and Angel days. I actually find it easier to write those than ones I can see, but not see a clear path to in the canon I'm given. Which is kind of frustrating. I'd rather write the latter, you know?

Wincest I tend to avoid because it's a reading of the text I don't enjoy, except in very limited and specific circumstances, and I can see (especially in the later seasons) things slipping there if the pressure is applied in the right area, which makes avoiding reading it better for avoiding seeing that reading when viewing. I'm not sure I made any sense there.

I think I'm getting there. Distance has dulled how appalled I was. I like my fictional characters inside the box, thanks. No, not the metaphorical box, the glowy box. Which is as often now the wall-mounted flat panel, I guess.

I think on rewatch, now that you know where it's going, will be more pleasurable to you than your initial view. I'd just skim over the clunky jokey stuff at the beginning and focus on the meat that's rest of the episode.

It's weird because I wasn't really *in* fandom with Buffy. Way at the end of the show's run, I discovered the fic (which was mostly Spuffy ) so it was a bit jarring to see the explosion of SPN fic. Wincest was a huge whoa! but oddly J2 startled me more. "They're real people! That's so wrong!"

Fandom took my shame and gently petted it for a minute, and then set it on fire and let the cat throw up on it.

Wincest was a huge whoa! but oddly J2 startled me more. "They're real people! That's so wrong!"

That's my feeling about all the J2 and J3 fic out there. I read Wincest (more discussion to follow), but very, very rarely read RPS. It disturbs me to have writers moving real people around like figures on a chess board. Fictional characters, not so much.

As for the Wincest, as I've stated before, I understand the wrongness and damage caused by real-life incest. I in no way support that. But I can see understandable arguments being made for these two particular characters, who were isolated from so many "normal" events and growth experiences and socialization opportunities, and who have had only one another to turn to so often, to fall into such a relationship. IMO the best fics take this into consideration, and aren't just a "hey, I just noticed my brother has a hot ass, maybe we should have sex up against the wall." And personally I am capable of distinguishing between the Winchesters, who live in a world where vampires and werewolves and demons and visiting angels are commonplace, and the mundane world around me.

That being said, my squick tolerance reaches overload when one of the guys is a girl (sorry Fay), I think because of the potential for pregnancy, and any of the daddycest stories out there. (I don't like John, never will, but I cannot believe in the remotest possibility that he molested his boys.)

And after all that, I can tell you that this episode won't affect my reading habits one way or the other. Most of the fictions are held in a separate compartment in my brain from the show itself. Perhaps in an alternate-reality kind of way. I am more upset about how Show has been marginalizing Sam than I am by the meta in this episode, which was funny but oh-so-very heavy-handed. (And strangely enough this ep felt a little more hopeful because Dean and Sam seemed to be more united in the efforts to fight Teh Evil than they have been recently.)

I pretty clearly have no problem with the lack of a fourth wall. I also liked the meta-heavy SG-1 ep that pissed off a lot of SG-1 fandom. Gag reels are my favorite things ever.

Oddly enough, quite a number of folks really hated the meta elements of the episode, particularly the bits at the beginning, with the fangirl and the slash. Hated it so much they hated the episode as a whole.

I don't think it's so odd, but I am curious. I suppose for different reasons, but... what's your sense on that? Hated it because it was so directly meta (if that makes sense - not clever, just directly poking fun), or did they think it was mean-spirited? Or, like Bev, they just didn't like the show being (in part) about the show's fandom? I'm curious whether people were pissed/offended or just thought it was dumb/no added value. I suppose both.

For myself, I didn't find it mean. But, as noted above, I love this kind of stuff, so I'm easy.