Fay, I'm fascinated to hear you talk about how you don't see Dean/Sam but you're writing it. I mean, I have been known to write characters I didn't like in order to get into their heads, but I've never written a pairing I didn't at least see as a possibility. OTOH, I don't tend to write pairings, anyway.

I also have to admit that I was reading your genderswitch Dean but ... I had to stop, because incest of almost any variety isn't my beautiful cake.

Fay, I'm fascinated to hear you talk about how you don't see Dean/Sam but you're writing it. I mean, I have been known to write characters I didn't like in order to get into their heads, but I've never written a pairing I didn't at least see as a possibility. OTOH, I don't tend to write pairings, anyway.

From a writing standpoint, I got into the habit of writing pairings I didn't see as a possibility as a writing exercise back in Buffy and Angel days. I actually find it easier to write those than ones I can see, but not see a clear path to in the canon I'm given. Which is kind of frustrating. I'd rather write the latter, you know?

Wincest I tend to avoid because it's a reading of the text I don't enjoy, except in very limited and specific circumstances, and I can see (especially in the later seasons) things slipping there if the pressure is applied in the right area, which makes avoiding reading it better for avoiding seeing that reading when viewing. I'm not sure I made any sense there.

I think I'm getting there. Distance has dulled how appalled I was. I like my fictional characters inside the box, thanks. No, not the metaphorical box, the glowy box. Which is as often now the wall-mounted flat panel, I guess.

I think on rewatch, now that you know where it's going, will be more pleasurable to you than your initial view. I'd just skim over the clunky jokey stuff at the beginning and focus on the meat that's rest of the episode.

It's weird because I wasn't really *in* fandom with Buffy. Way at the end of the show's run, I discovered the fic (which was mostly Spuffy ) so it was a bit jarring to see the explosion of SPN fic. Wincest was a huge whoa! but oddly J2 startled me more. "They're real people! That's so wrong!"

Fandom took my shame and gently petted it for a minute, and then set it on fire and let the cat throw up on it.

Wincest was a huge whoa! but oddly J2 startled me more. "They're real people! That's so wrong!"

That's my feeling about all the J2 and J3 fic out there. I read Wincest (more discussion to follow), but very, very rarely read RPS. It disturbs me to have writers moving real people around like figures on a chess board. Fictional characters, not so much.

As for the Wincest, as I've stated before, I understand the wrongness and damage caused by real-life incest. I in no way support that. But I can see understandable arguments being made for these two particular characters, who were isolated from so many "normal" events and growth experiences and socialization opportunities, and who have had only one another to turn to so often, to fall into such a relationship. IMO the best fics take this into consideration, and aren't just a "hey, I just noticed my brother has a hot ass, maybe we should have sex up against the wall." And personally I am capable of distinguishing between the Winchesters, who live in a world where vampires and werewolves and demons and visiting angels are commonplace, and the mundane world around me.

That being said, my squick tolerance reaches overload when one of the guys is a girl (sorry Fay), I think because of the potential for pregnancy, and any of the daddycest stories out there. (I don't like John, never will, but I cannot believe in the remotest possibility that he molested his boys.)

And after all that, I can tell you that this episode won't affect my reading habits one way or the other. Most of the fictions are held in a separate compartment in my brain from the show itself. Perhaps in an alternate-reality kind of way. I am more upset about how Show has been marginalizing Sam than I am by the meta in this episode, which was funny but oh-so-very heavy-handed. (And strangely enough this ep felt a little more hopeful because Dean and Sam seemed to be more united in the efforts to fight Teh Evil than they have been recently.)

I pretty clearly have no problem with the lack of a fourth wall. I also liked the meta-heavy SG-1 ep that pissed off a lot of SG-1 fandom. Gag reels are my favorite things ever.

Oddly enough, quite a number of folks really hated the meta elements of the episode, particularly the bits at the beginning, with the fangirl and the slash. Hated it so much they hated the episode as a whole.

I don't think it's so odd, but I am curious. I suppose for different reasons, but... what's your sense on that? Hated it because it was so directly meta (if that makes sense - not clever, just directly poking fun), or did they think it was mean-spirited? Or, like Bev, they just didn't like the show being (in part) about the show's fandom? I'm curious whether people were pissed/offended or just thought it was dumb/no added value. I suppose both.

For myself, I didn't find it mean. But, as noted above, I love this kind of stuff, so I'm easy.

Gag reels are my favorite things ever.

Me too. I resent DVD's without them.

I am more upset about how Show has been marginalizing Sam than I am by the meta in this episode,

I wondered if they meant to address that with the "everything will depend on you" and your brother was carrying the load and now it's your turn. Maybe I just read too much meta directed at the fans.

I pretty clearly have no problem with the lack of a fourth wall. I also liked the meta-heavy SG-1 ep that pissed off a lot of SG-1 fandom. Gag reels are my favorite things ever.

Oh, I love gag reels. And I love writers and directors and set decorators and lighting directors talking about how they bring an episode to film. I love actors talking about their process, and I hang on every word of how Jared rocked in a corner till he was ready to cry onscreen, or how Jensen screamed so hard in the cat scene he had no voice for the next scene he had to film. I enjoy discussion and love meta.

In my perfect little world, all that sort of clouds around the show itself. From "Then" to credits roll, I expect to watch the story unfold, without being dragged through the glass of the screen. To me, it's an extension of show, don't tell. If you're going to make a sly allusion to a facet of your fanbase in the show? Do it with a wink or an enigmatic smile, not a push down the stairs and seltzer in your viewers' pants.

On another note, I was watching Dollhouse a few weeks ago, and noticed Kelly Manners' name in the credits. Made me wibble, for a minute.

Bev - yes, matter of boundaries. I like all the things you like + in-show allusions to out-of-show even if they are as direct as these were. I mean, I can't say I would in every instance or every show, but for me, clunky and heavy-handed though it may have been (quoting from others' posts)- it made me laugh!

I did want to note that the "ToREaDor" motel exterior was the one from Malleus Malificarum. It was lit yellow and red for Dean's asking Katie!Ruby, "There's no saving me from the pit, is there?"