The only reason Samuel didn't kill Sam and Dean is because Sam is a crazy-assed motherfucker. He delivered them directly to where they were to be killed. He didn't abstractly sell them out. They were going to be killed and he was perfectly okay with that.

So I'm still in Dean's place when he promised to kill him. But I don't think Show would go there.

I was sitting here trying to remember just what Crowly intended to do with them in his monster Gitmo, and I too thought that he intended to kill them. When the guys were split up and both of them had a group of demons sent in to them, I thought the demons were there to finish them off, not just to tenderize them.

He delivered them directly to where they were to be killed. He didn't abstractly sell them out. They were going to be killed and he was perfectly okay with that.

Is this what we are supposed to see in those scenes though?

I mean, I can see how it should be true. But Show has clearly slammed shots of the KoolAid where Sam and Dean can't be killed like any other human. It's not even meta because they're above the credits any longer, it's part of the myth now, the way I've seen it.

Because if Sampa really threatened their lives, he should be toast given the unwritten Winchester code. But I've never thought he had that kind of actual power.

Also I don't think Show would go there. But that is apart from how less-than-regularly-mortal the boys are looking these days.

Is this what we are supposed to see in those scenes though?

Crowley was going to kill them, and Samuel handed them over knowing that.

That's pretty damning. I don't know how else to read that. Dean's threat that he was going to kill him came from exactly the Roy and Walt place.

Sampa doesn't know Sam and Dean headline a weekly show, and I saying he's buying into their myth is giving him excuses he hasn't earned. He didn't think it would stick this time?

I ... I want to feel the way you do. But Show has gotten so clear on how SAM AND DEAN ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOU that I can't.

Heaven and Hell and Death and Angels and Demons and nothing stops them. Ever.

Sampa knows the history, even if he doesn't see the credits roll like we do. A bullet might stop a red shirt but he knows it hasn't ever successfully stopped either of his grandsons.

Crowley was going to kill them

He was always a mwah ha ha evil, not a real dangerous evil. He'll taunt you, trick you but he doesn't kill you. Not if you are the boys.

The meta, for me, is getting so much bigger than the show. I miss honestly fearing for them.

He was always a mwah ha ha evil, not a real dangerous evil. He'll taunt you, trick you but he doesn't kill you. Not if you are the boys.

He sent the monsters to kill them. It was explicit. I'm not reading into this.

We know they will survive, but I'm not going to excuse the actions of the antagonists just because of it. Roy and Walt succeeded in killing them, they came back. Crowley attempted murder and failed. He wasn't playing around with unkillable avatars in his head. He was ending a threat.

I really don't get how you can mitigate the intent or knowledge of Samuel without reading stuff into the script that doesn't seem to have been put there. How can you canonically excuse a character for some sort of meta knowledge he can't possibly have?

You can not care, sure. But that doesn't extend to the characters. Dean reacts with a defiance born of cussedness, but even he acts like he's in peril. Samuel wasn't doing less.

How can you canonically excuse a character for some sort of meta knowledge he can't possibly have?

Because the show has shown they are nigh invulnerable. I don't actually like this though.

You can not care, sure. But that doesn't extend to the characters. Dean reacts with a defiance born of cussedness, but even he acts like he's in peril. Samuel wasn't doing less.

*I* care less because it's been shown that Dean and Sam are going to live through, so far, anything. I used to fear for them. I used to cringe. But they've died, been killed by hunters, gone to Hell, dove into cages and they live.

*They* don't seem to fear mortality. Dean reacts like a guy who lived through a fatal crash, sold his soul to a demon, was killed by Hell Hounds and had an angel grip him tight and raise him from Perdition. And now has battled (and won against) demons, Horsemen and Lucifer. He's going to survive.

It doesn't feel like the Dean who was so cocky he pretended he wasn't afraid to die (but knew he could), it's a guy who thinks he's going to be standing at the end of the world. So far, he's right.

And that change in attitude (both meta and canon) is strongly affecting how I react to the boys and their peril.

Note: I hate the bold. Going to the less eloquent ** around a name. Seems less confrontational. And since I really just want to actually talk, not get confrontational, **.

Why are you ascribing meta to the characters, though? Why attribute less than mortal intent to Crowley or Samuel? Sure, you don't feel they're going to die (not that I think this is special--we wondered how Magnum would escape the bad guys, not if--it's pretty typical of headliners in all shows--Buffy, Angel, whatever--I don't get why SPN suddenly seems to be a victim), but Dean fights like his life depended on it, or he wouldn't fight at all. He wasn't fighting those ghouls or whatever to save the world, or even his brother. He was fighting to stay alive. It was right there in the story onscreen.

I mean, do you really think Crowley didn't mean his orders to kill them? Samuel didn't believe Crowley's intent?

it's been shown that Dean and Sam are going to live through, so far, anything. I used to fear for them

Did you really ever think one of them was going to die and stay dead while the show continued? Do you think Damon or Stefan or Elena will kick the bucket any time soon on TVD, or Olivia on Fringe, or whoever on whatever? What changed for you, and how? It's always been about the emotional price for their actions, not the mortal one. Like Joss and Buffy after The Gift. He knew we knew she was coming back. That was never a question. It was about how, and at what cost.

If you feel the cost is trite or the risk trivial, again, that's your lack of connection to the story. But to say Crowley doesn't intend the boys to really die when he orders their death--that's projecting all sorts of meta into places I don't think is applicable.

There's emotional response to the show, which you say you're lacking, but then there's also canon. And those two things are independent of each other. I'm just saying Crowley ordered them executed, and Samuel delivered them up for it, and the intent was no less capital than when Roy or Walt pulled the trigger. I don't get why it would be.

Sampa doesn't know Sam and Dean headline a weekly show, and I saying he's buying into their myth is giving him excuses he hasn't earned. He didn't think it would stick this time?

One thing that disturbs me is that while Samuel shouldn't be thinking of the boys as having script immunity, he (and Crowley, and Meg) have been getting pretty blasé about the fact that they have a literal angel at their beck and call. Something that can be briefly warded against but not actually killed by any mortal or infernal agency, can do pretty much anything it wants within limits only relative to other celestial beings, and has shown a willingness to rebel against Heaven's orders on Dean's (and maybe Sam's) behalf. Was Samuel planning to keep one of those angel-repellent sigils fresh and nearby for the rest of his life if he succeeded in getting his grandsons killed?

I liked it better in Season 4 when Ruby was clearly terrified of Castiel and taking great pains to avoid even being in the same location, nevermind glibly taunting him in face-to-face confrontations.

I buy Samuel being that unhinged (because, seriously, the bit where you decide to kill your grandsons means you've taken leave of a lot), and Crowley thinking he's king of Hell and he's worked with him before (although clearly a wrong assumption). Meg? No, she should be acting more like Ruby. She was more afraid of Crowley than of Castiel. Tongue-kissing aside, honey, no.

Crowley being subject to the Peter Principle makes me chuckle. But is Meg in charge now? Oy.