I've considered he should be shunned, but not killed.

I'm so on Dean's side it's not funny. They'll probably not do it all vengey style like I might want--if it does happen, it'll be a battle with immediate peril, or maybe he'll change his mind at the last minute and redeem himself (and then sacrifice himself, natch).

But the idea of Dean hunting him down and killing him? I still wish Roy and Walt to come to an abrupt revenge-driven end. It's how my blood courses. Fucker tried to kill them both.

They'll probably not do it all vengey style like I might want

In my idle imaginings -- I spend way too much time re-imagaining SPN plotlines, I tell you -- at that moment when Dean is ready to put down Samuel Sam steps up and says "let me do it." And explains (in short sentences, because these guys don't go in for long conversations so much) that his soul is already in hell, but that Dean still is bound for heaven. So let Sam be the one to kill off granddad. And then my heart clenches because Dean always tried to be the one to take on the harder jobs to spare Sam (like offering to be the person to kill Madison) but now Sam will always step forward and try to be the person to take the shot in these cases (in my version of the show, anyway). Since he doesn't have anything left to lose, literally.

Aw. That's SPN-sad.

I do hope Sam gets his soul back before that's an issue, though.

That is definitely SPN sad but I don't see the Dean I've known for the last six years killing kin without a damn good reason. Sadly, I don't think selling your grandsons out to a demon rates at this stage. But they should totes shun him.

I still wish Roy and Walt to come to an abrupt revenge-driven end.

Well, yeah. They KILLED them.

Um, Roy and Walt were the ones that killed them, right?

I think if someone kills you, you can kill them right back. It's the lessor things where you've got to figure out what is the good path versus what is evil.

The only reason Samuel didn't kill Sam and Dean is because Sam is a crazy-assed motherfucker. He delivered them directly to where they were to be killed. He didn't abstractly sell them out. They were going to be killed and he was perfectly okay with that.

So I'm still in Dean's place when he promised to kill him. But I don't think Show would go there.

I was sitting here trying to remember just what Crowly intended to do with them in his monster Gitmo, and I too thought that he intended to kill them. When the guys were split up and both of them had a group of demons sent in to them, I thought the demons were there to finish them off, not just to tenderize them.

He delivered them directly to where they were to be killed. He didn't abstractly sell them out. They were going to be killed and he was perfectly okay with that.

Is this what we are supposed to see in those scenes though?

I mean, I can see how it should be true. But Show has clearly slammed shots of the KoolAid where Sam and Dean can't be killed like any other human. It's not even meta because they're above the credits any longer, it's part of the myth now, the way I've seen it.

Because if Sampa really threatened their lives, he should be toast given the unwritten Winchester code. But I've never thought he had that kind of actual power.

Also I don't think Show would go there. But that is apart from how less-than-regularly-mortal the boys are looking these days.

Is this what we are supposed to see in those scenes though?

Crowley was going to kill them, and Samuel handed them over knowing that.

That's pretty damning. I don't know how else to read that. Dean's threat that he was going to kill him came from exactly the Roy and Walt place.

Sampa doesn't know Sam and Dean headline a weekly show, and I saying he's buying into their myth is giving him excuses he hasn't earned. He didn't think it would stick this time?

I ... I want to feel the way you do. But Show has gotten so clear on how SAM AND DEAN ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOU that I can't.

Heaven and Hell and Death and Angels and Demons and nothing stops them. Ever.

Sampa knows the history, even if he doesn't see the credits roll like we do. A bullet might stop a red shirt but he knows it hasn't ever successfully stopped either of his grandsons.

Crowley was going to kill them

He was always a mwah ha ha evil, not a real dangerous evil. He'll taunt you, trick you but he doesn't kill you. Not if you are the boys.

The meta, for me, is getting so much bigger than the show. I miss honestly fearing for them.

He was always a mwah ha ha evil, not a real dangerous evil. He'll taunt you, trick you but he doesn't kill you. Not if you are the boys.

He sent the monsters to kill them. It was explicit. I'm not reading into this.

We know they will survive, but I'm not going to excuse the actions of the antagonists just because of it. Roy and Walt succeeded in killing them, they came back. Crowley attempted murder and failed. He wasn't playing around with unkillable avatars in his head. He was ending a threat.

I really don't get how you can mitigate the intent or knowledge of Samuel without reading stuff into the script that doesn't seem to have been put there. How can you canonically excuse a character for some sort of meta knowledge he can't possibly have?

You can not care, sure. But that doesn't extend to the characters. Dean reacts with a defiance born of cussedness, but even he acts like he's in peril. Samuel wasn't doing less.