Dang, Jim is still having such a hard time. I'm guessing depression since this has been a theme with him for a while now on facebook. It's almost too sad read his status updates.

Okay, those promos are very funny.

I haven't been able to have any coherent thoughts about the episode yet, therefore haven't anything cogent to add to the discussion. Perkins is my proxy.

Austin, can you do a direct link to the relevant posts? My facebook connection sucks and won't let me back up more than a page. Thanks.

Also, as much as I hated to retire the Refur (for posterity: Where are the stars and the lobster? Where is the devil’s trap that was glowing? They have passed like pie in a diner, like a romp with puppies in the meadow. The days have gone down in the West, behind the motel into shadow.), new tagline!

Bev its in his status updates yesterday. Expand the comments of when he misses Pie and watch the people put their feet in mouths. [link]

Also we need your spicy brains!

This was linked on twitter by Theodosia as random thoughts about the episode... [link] Live journal

Thanks, Austin. I'm on the laptop and something must be set differently--facebook won't let me back up beyond the present page on anybody's facebook, including mine. It's stoopit.

I have no spicy brains. I haven't had a chance to rewatch the episode. I watched with the flail squad, and there was a lot of flailing, and Oh Dean-ing, and Oh Sam-ing, and Oh Cas-ing. I need to watch it again to get some better idea of how I feel about it. I do know I'm terrifically impressed with Heyerdahl, and with the acting rapport between him and Ackles in the torture scene. It was absolutely electric, and I think the guest casting was superb. I'm seeing the same sort of physical ease and familiarity between JP and Cortese as there is between JP and JA, and it adds an extra depth to the scene, in much the same way that the physical trust between SMG and DB added dimension to seasons 2&3 of BtVS. When actors spend a lot of time together, are familiar with each other's mental and physical reactions to things, finish each other's sentences, understand how the other works, it changes the onscreen dynamic. It doesn't speak to character, but it does free the actors to go further in character than they otherwise might. I think both Ackles and Padalecki are at the height of their games with the job they're doing bringing the Winchesters' trauma to the screen, and Collins is at nearly their level.

I have some concerns re RaceFail, but beyond those, right now my feeling is this season is going to wring me emotionally even more than season two. I'm just holding onto the relief of knowing there's a season five ahead, and that whatever happens between now and the S4 finale can be put right by the end of the series entire.

Now the flip is that John didn't last a hundred years, or that Alastair never even saw John in hell and it was a lie based on Alastair knowing after 30 years of torture where to push Dean's buttons.

Yeah, that's what I'm hoping for. Partly because I'm just a sap and want Dean not to suffer so much, but partly because I think it makes a better story. John wasn't a saint, after all, just a righteous man.

Yes - I don't know why anyone would trust anything Alastair has to say on the subject.

And contrary to what was said upthread - this episode actually gave me hope that there was some way that they could get John back on the show.

I know that Constantine was already mentioned, but was anyone else reminded of Loki and Bartleby in Dogma?

Not until now! That's a very similar dynamic, you're right.

I threadsucked, so no meara, but I headdesked at the corner they painted themselves into while lovingly caressing their copies of The Prophecy and stealing boldly from it plotting this out.

I don't actually think casting a white actor would have twisted the story they were trying to tell: instead, it would have avoided the hamfistedness. I mean, I've seen it done. I *own* a copy of The Prophecy myself, after all. C. Walken is a pretty pale white guy. It still worked, and worked better.

Agreed that having Anna as the bad angel would have been just as problematic, just differently problematic.

It's... proportional representation? Is that the term, Suela? Where I'd be less irked if, you know, there was a balance. It's not that they don't cast white men as antagonists (they do, often): it's that they don't cast *non-white men* as recurring allies. The only non-white male recurring characters have all been adversaries. (Victor turns ally, but then he dies.)

At this point, as I'm convinced that *anyone* the Winchesters interact with has DOOM DOOM DOOM in invisible ink on the forehead, I'm actually okay with the idea of a recurring, non-white male ally who, like Pamela, gets caught up in the fatal hot mess that is Sam and Dean. So long as, like Pamela, the death has weight and agency and makes narrative sense and feels organic rather than tacked on. *cough*Victor*cough*

Is Principal Hotass from Buffy doing anything right now? He'd be awesomecakes.

But other than THAT (and other than Anna and Uriel calling Castiel Cas, which irked and felt OOC), I loved the episode.