Re: the SPN race issues, I have to confess my ignorance and insensitivity. And I consider myself a knee-jerk liberal. *embarrassed*

I suppose, in the context of God and faith, there are some who may wonder at the absence of Judaism in the larger fight against evil, or Islam, or Hinduism, or Buddhism, etc. There's a message in that omission, as well. I've seen the Magen David and Hebrew and Arabic written as elements of devil's traps, but it seems these are relegated to a supporting role.

I don't know, I've just seen a lot of good characters killed off by evil in the show, black and white, male and female.

I've been thinking about John since the episode. Not like that never happens, but still. I haven't rewatched the ep yet which is a sign that it was powerful and I have that to look forward to which will be a treat. However, I thought before this episode there was no way to bring JDM back to play John. They have made the character un-playable. Now after Alistair's revelation it may be impossible. Really? He withstood a hundred years of torture and didn't break. How do you even write for that character to come back?

Then I thought...aha...the genius. Of course Alastair would say that John outlasted Dean. Dean isn't the man he thought his father wanted him to be and Alastair has confirmed that for him. He also learned not too long ago that he is not the man his mother wanted him to be either, but that is just another level of pain that I am sure he is processing at least subconsciously.

Now the flip is that John didn't last a hundred years, or that Alastair never even saw John in hell and it was a lie based on Alastair knowing after 30 years of torture where to push Dean's buttons. So now at the end of season four in Dean, we have the mirror image of Sam at the beginning of season one. Dean also has no idea of the truth of his father's feelings or opinions of him outside Dean's POV. We learned Sam's POV was wrong and it shocked Sam, so now maybe we will get to learn that Dean's POV is wrong as well. That's an angle that I think JDM could play.

Then again, Kripke hasn't thought that far ahead.

PS Yay for the Castiel/Dean romance. Go slash. Choose slash.

I don't know, I've just seen a lot of good characters killed off by evil in the show, black and white, male and female.

But it seems like women die (and especially suffer horribly before dying) at a higher rate than men. And black men turn evil and die at a much higher rate than anyone else. Again, nobody thinks the show is being intentionally racist. It is just that it has established a very problematic pattern, and that pattern will not be broken until the showrunners notice it, and establish a policy the disseminate to the writers.

I fear that the character of Castiel is going to end up misused, in the Anya/Spike kind of way. He is definitely intriguing and mysterious and powerful, and a little goes a long way. Too much of a good thing, however... given the rabid fangirl response and how closely we know the PTB at Supernatural follow the boards, I bet they'll just keep upping his screen time and thereby dilute his impact.

Sneak peeks for 4.17:
Sneak peek 1
Sneak peek 2
Sneak peek 3

Delurking to say that I left the show largely because of the racial and gender issues. Just couldn't hang with it indefinitely, much as I loved the show itself. I still follow along here, and tivo actually still records it for me, but I've stopped watching and I don't expect I'll restart. Wish it were otherwise, because there's a lot there that's interesting to me, but in the end I had to make my call.

(Miss talking about it with you guys in here, though.)

Dang, Jim is still having such a hard time. I'm guessing depression since this has been a theme with him for a while now on facebook. It's almost too sad read his status updates.

Okay, those promos are very funny.

I haven't been able to have any coherent thoughts about the episode yet, therefore haven't anything cogent to add to the discussion. Perkins is my proxy.

Austin, can you do a direct link to the relevant posts? My facebook connection sucks and won't let me back up more than a page. Thanks.

Also, as much as I hated to retire the Refur (for posterity: Where are the stars and the lobster? Where is the devil’s trap that was glowing? They have passed like pie in a diner, like a romp with puppies in the meadow. The days have gone down in the West, behind the motel into shadow.), new tagline!

Bev its in his status updates yesterday. Expand the comments of when he misses Pie and watch the people put their feet in mouths. [link]

Also we need your spicy brains!

This was linked on twitter by Theodosia as random thoughts about the episode... [link] Live journal