Really, I'm not sure that save the Earth or don't, but Sam dies either way were the only choices. At the end, sure, but if they had the opportunity to "replay the level", if you will, there were choices they could have made earlier to change how things went.

Now I'm imagining how the past 2 seasons would play out if they got a Mulligan.

I wasn't fond of "Swan Song" for the most part, but my take on the whole predestination thing was the opposite of Bev's. According to those in the know, Lucifer and Michael were destined to face each other wearing Sam and Dean, fight, and bring about Armageddon. Instead, Dean refused, Sam overcame his possession, and the two archangels got history's most extreme time out with the world continuing on just fine in their absence. If that was a predestined outcome rather than the result of free will, God played it pretty close to the vest.

And, given the existence of other God's and a 'Death' as old or older than God who will reap God someday I'm taking it that this Universe's God is neither all-powerful or all-knowing - which means he is not responsible for Lucifer's fall or humanity's.

I think Death is the unreliable narrator in this, perhaps focused on its own function to the exclusion of all else. It's clear that death isn't a final end in the Supernatural cosmology - we've seen a presumably eternal afterlife, as well as lots of special cases where the dead don't rest in peace. And both God and a number of His lesser servants (and even demons under certain circumstances) have proven capable of undoing death and restoring people to life.

My problems with Swan Song have nothing to do with free will and destiny, but with how bored I still get watching Lucifer taunt Sam, and Michael & Lucifer whine at each other. Love the first 15 or 20 minutes, and then I start drifting.

And while I realize it's not his show, I still am a bit unsatisfied with Cas was utilized, or not utilized, and the near complete absence of any follow-up to his and Dean's break-up [of their friendship] - so that last part I'm looking a little stink-eyed at the previous ep as well.

Kripke's definitely not an auteur of the sort Whedon is, but hey...in ways that is a good thing. He's a kid playing with toys and playing with the audience and who has a story to tell. I think Joss tends to have a thesis. I don't judge either of the approaches. I just see how the stories turn out.

I find I prefer his epic "WHEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" to Whedon's fits of "LET ME SHOW U I R SMRT! SMRTR THAN U! O HAI!"

Kripke's a raw storyteller, not a craftsman. He gets certain things at a gut level, anything deeper he's pants at, and I'm okay with that.

Helps, probably, that we're almost exactly the same age, came up through what appear to be similar subcultural circles, and therefore have ALMOST EXACTLY the same references/touchstones/shorthands.

I find I prefer his epic "WHEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" to Whedon's fits of "LET ME SHOW U I R SMRT! SMRTR THAN U! O HAI!"

I am with Plei on this. I love Buffy, but I think I prefer Kripke's fannish glee.

Wheras I love Buffy more, but still love SPN a lot. And I have absolutely no problem with the fact that Kripke is mostly (but not 100%) winging it.

I think I love SPN and the Jossverse separately, for different reasons, with different crazy highs. I have no illusions that that would necessarily mean I'd like either of the guys, though.

I do like Tim, though. He's cool.

You know, I think this is the first time I've even thought about whether I'd like either. I mean the self that writes is sometimes so different from the self the presents in person, that a person's writing does not necessarily indicate anything about what they are like in person.

I have one question for Kripke¹ and maybe none for Joss². The difference with Tim is that I already know him, so it's not like it's just through his writing. But Tim's writing is highly "motherfucker!" and would tempt me to want to at least poke at the person behind the script.

Thinking more about writers...it's hard to say strictly because of their scripts, because so many of them have other presences these days.

¹:What was Mary sorry for in Home?
²:I can just ask Tim about Zoe.

Kripke strikes me as the sort of guy I'd love to have a beer or two with. Very seat of his pants, in the moment, and willing to collaborate and see what he (and others) can cull from the basic story he set up. I think the ride, given the fan support and reaction, has been as much fun for him as anything.

Joss ... does not strike me that way. I don't think I'd have a good time with Joss, but then I don't have to. I do appreciate his work, though. I loved Buffy for a lot of reasons, and every once in a while I still get that "I miss my girl" feeling.