The way they handled the showdown reminded me of Angel "losing" his soul in Enemies so that he and Buffy could suss out what Faith was up to, with an assist from Giles and that dude who owed Giles a favor. That it was a plan only became clear after the execution of the plan, without informing the audience of it during the action.

"Second-best." Love that moment.

You know what I really love? For all the talk after LR about the undercurrent of punishing the sexual female for being a sexual female? Pam is just as much the sexy sexy flirty hotass that she was in 4x01.

Yep! Very cool to see her back. And her rack.

I agree that Genevieve Cortese was pretty good this week. And Julie McNiven (Anna) was good too. Huh, she was on Mad Men ? Maybe I do need to check that show out eventually.

That sex scene was pretty hot, and then the Titanic thing was just silly. I thought the grace stuff was kind of ridiculous too, but I went with it. There was a lot of bizarre cosmology this week, like they were stuffing in an entire worldview into one episode.

zimshan on LJ had a huge problem the other week when it was established that Dean remembered EVERYTHING from his time in Hell. And now, knowing that Dean spent ten of those forty years in the Pit inflicting torture on other souls? What the fuck, I totally agree with her. He should be a hot mess. Angel came back feral, and that dude had personal experience with torture already. Dean has been remarkably well-adjusted for a man coming off forty years of untold agony.

Dean has been remarkably well-adjusted for a man coming off forty years of untold agony.

That's also been bothering me. By that forty years reckoning, Dean has spent more than half his life down in Hell. But what we got back was very recognizeably Dean. Then again, Dean's body was put back together when Castiel dragged him out of the pit. Maybe some degree of psychological reconstruction was also part of the deal?

I know, I know, it feels all handwavey, but that's all I got.

catches up on old thread.

Gah. Can't believe I overlooked the "I doubt it" when Sam said that Anna must be happy now. Even so, it's still heartbreaking.

I agree with PC in that it feels like we've been given a whole lot of cosmology in one go with this episode. The one thing that's not sitting right with me (from a story perspective, not a theological perspective) is the idea that angels don't feel things. It doesn't quite jibe with some of what we've seen from Castiel and even Uriel. Or is it just me? As evidenced above, I can sometimes miss things that should be obvious.

I still think that knowing what you did, seeing what you did - is different than feeling it. Like there is still some sort of shock preventing him from getting the whole effect but not enough to prevent the nightmares and thus the self-medicating.

Other thought on what I said last night: the Cross-Roads Demon from last week said that they had the Winchesters exactly where they wanted them: Dean in Hell (either becoming evil or prevented from doing good) and Sam - a mess (not doing good and when he starts using his powers possibly being corrupted.) I'm sure that what helps Hell isn't what Heaven wants so reason enough to save Dean which has the benefit of getting Sam to stop doing what he's doing too.

I had another thought. Well, I remembered a thought I had last night about Anna and her fall. When Lucifer fell he was imprisoned in Hell. Anna fell and was born as a human and grew up as a human. Her punishment was different. Perhaps meant to lead up to a choice such as the one she made last night. Possibly not meant to be made in quite that situation but the Angelic activity around Dean being pulled out of Hell woke up part of her that was in a kind of hibernation.

Also, I agree that at some point John had to realize that something hinky happened - his research would have lead him there.

I also agree that Mary never thought that Sam would pay the price. She thought that she would herself. (Did we talk about that here? Or was that something I overheard at the con?)

I also agree that Mary never thought that Sam would pay the price. She thought that she would herself.

Exactly. Insofar as she was thinking clearly when she made the deal, I doubt she was thinking about hypothetical future children. I could also see her thinking that she'd have the know-how to protect herself when the YED came calling again.

Whee! Yay to wake up to new thread!

And no matter how much white you add after that, you still only have gray.

I loved the way Cass put this. It's so fitting for the tone of the show. There is no shanshu for these boys. Even if Dean became an angel, they don't feel. Castiel and Anna both proved angels can still be unhappy, or more precisely, not happy.

zimshan on LJ had a huge problem the other week when it was established that Dean remembered EVERYTHING from his time in Hell. And now, knowing that Dean spent ten of those forty years in the Pit inflicting torture on other souls? What the fuck, I totally agree with her. He should be a hot mess. Angel came back feral, and that dude had personal experience with torture already. Dean has been remarkably well-adjusted for a man coming off forty years of untold agony.

I brought that up here, but the consensus was that it wouldn't be any fun to watch on tv, so we got the healing packed into time we didn't see. Kind of like Spike needing two weeks to deal with a soul, but Angel had needed 100 years.

My handwavy theory is that Dean's remark that he had no scars (knife or bullet wounds) other than the hand print from Castiel, meant that Castiel healed him as he pulled him from perdition. He's had the equivalent of 400 years of therapy so that now he is not cured, but he is functioning.

ALSO! I just thought. Maybe the hand on the window wasn't a titanic shout-out. Maybe the hand on the scar, then the hand on the window, Kripke was drawing parallels to let us know that Dean and Castiel totally got their Grace on. That's what I'm gonna believe. Dean did question whether something rode him out of hell.