Also, I agree that at some point John had to realize that something hinky happened - his research would have lead him there.

I also agree that Mary never thought that Sam would pay the price. She thought that she would herself. (Did we talk about that here? Or was that something I overheard at the con?)

I also agree that Mary never thought that Sam would pay the price. She thought that she would herself.

Exactly. Insofar as she was thinking clearly when she made the deal, I doubt she was thinking about hypothetical future children. I could also see her thinking that she'd have the know-how to protect herself when the YED came calling again.

Whee! Yay to wake up to new thread!

And no matter how much white you add after that, you still only have gray.

I loved the way Cass put this. It's so fitting for the tone of the show. There is no shanshu for these boys. Even if Dean became an angel, they don't feel. Castiel and Anna both proved angels can still be unhappy, or more precisely, not happy.

zimshan on LJ had a huge problem the other week when it was established that Dean remembered EVERYTHING from his time in Hell. And now, knowing that Dean spent ten of those forty years in the Pit inflicting torture on other souls? What the fuck, I totally agree with her. He should be a hot mess. Angel came back feral, and that dude had personal experience with torture already. Dean has been remarkably well-adjusted for a man coming off forty years of untold agony.

I brought that up here, but the consensus was that it wouldn't be any fun to watch on tv, so we got the healing packed into time we didn't see. Kind of like Spike needing two weeks to deal with a soul, but Angel had needed 100 years.

My handwavy theory is that Dean's remark that he had no scars (knife or bullet wounds) other than the hand print from Castiel, meant that Castiel healed him as he pulled him from perdition. He's had the equivalent of 400 years of therapy so that now he is not cured, but he is functioning.

ALSO! I just thought. Maybe the hand on the window wasn't a titanic shout-out. Maybe the hand on the scar, then the hand on the window, Kripke was drawing parallels to let us know that Dean and Castiel totally got their Grace on. That's what I'm gonna believe. Dean did question whether something rode him out of hell.

Alastair is a little too Brando for me.

Ha! I noted that as well.

He's had the equivalent of 400 years of therapy so that now he is not cured, but he is functioning.

Think that's what I'm going to go with.

I thought the Titanic shout out was funny on purpose, but that could just be me. I am still pretty meh on the angel sex, but I haven't rewatched yet.

Speaking of meh (the word, not the sentiment): [link]

Also, we need a new phrase for doing the nasty with angels, so we can be gleeful about it, like we were with the necrophilia last week.

Nephilia?

By the way, if you google "angel sex with humans," you fall into a world of weird. Further googling about fallen angels can lead you to "Did Fallen Angels Censor the Bible?" [link] However, you have to stop googling when your head explodes.

The parallel with the hand print also got my attention, in a way that I'm not sure I have words for yet.

The one thing that's not sitting right with me (from a story perspective, not a theological perspective) is the idea that angels don't feel things.

I'm gonna preface this whole post with saying I need a rewatch, but... I didn't come away thinking that angels can't feel, just that being human and being an angel is different. She spent all that time on earth, watching over humans, but never receiving any orders. She was hurt, and felt betrayed, or at least that's how I heard it.

Also, maybe I'm unclear, but did she "jump" or was she "pushed"? I was getting the impression all over the place that she made a conscious choice to leave, cut out her own grace, and because of that she fell. She wasn't thrown out, she threw herself out. Which to me means betrayal, which means after she got re-graced she went straight to perdition.

Don't know how yet to codify thoughts on Dean's 40 days in the desert 40 years in hell. Need a rewatch or three.

I was getting the impression all over the place that she made a conscious choice to leave, cut out her own grace, and because of that she fell. She wasn't thrown out, she threw herself out.

That's what she said - she made the choice herself, tore out her grace (I am talking grace in the SPN-verse, of course, because otherwise my head stars spinning) and fell on purpose. I'm not sure what happens to her now. I have a feeling we'll see her again. But who knows.

Non-spoilery interview with Traci Dinwiddie

Aillean - if she went straight to perdition - that means the white light was from other Angels throwing her there?