That's my question, though -- is he the radical fringe (and, therefore, not representative of a large chunk of people)?

I don't think he is. He makes *my* blood run cold, because I spent 4 years in a church like his (though not 20,000 members; try 60). But I'm not the average American. I think that the average American sees him, his mega-church, and gazillion books, as totally mainstream.

t edit These mega-churches, in their warehouse-like facilites, like Saddleback and Mars Hill, are really the big thing in Christian churches now.

And I think that a lot of people attend them but don't agree with everything the pastor/church says. Which doesn't make Warren's bigotry *right,* but it makes me understand how people can see him as mainstream.

That's my question, though -- is he the radical fringe

Yeah, I'm kind of thinking the fringe makes up a big chunk of the blanket. Or else the blanket has come unraveled.

And who would be a better choice for that side of the aisle?

Honestly, I have no idea. I'm an atheist Jew living in New York City - my exposure to the religious right is pretty limited to the news and the blogosphere, which means loudmouth crazies. But there must be someone!

I think that the average American sees him, his mega-church, and gazillion books, as totally mainstream.

Sadly, I also think this is probably true.

Political disagreement is different than hate speech. There are plenty of people on the political right who have not publically equated homosexuality with bestiality and abortion rights to the Holocaust. And it does a disservice to the many sane conservatives out there to imply that reaching across the aisle means bypassing them entirely in favor of the radical fringe.

So much this. Thank you for articulating it so well, Jessica.

True, Emily. I can't help feeling though that trying to accomodate everyone is why "we" get our butts kicked all the time. Because we don't want to say anything against anyone's culture even when it's filled with poison. But if that's the biggest gripe I ever have with him, I'll build a statue.

And I think that a lot of people attend them but don't agree with everything the pastor/church says. Which doesn't make Warren's bigotry *right,* but it makes me understand how people can see him as mainstream.

Yeah, definitely this. I know lots of people in the church who are bigoted, but I know lots who are really, truly not. And I know even more who would not be if they had a chance to get to know people.

I definitely don't agree with everything my church says, not even close.

I can't help feeling though that trying to accomodate everyone is why "we" get our butts kicked all the time.

Well, at least you can trust that Speaker Pelosi plays hardball.

I can't help feeling though that trying to accomodate everyone is why "we" get our butts kicked all the time.

Dude, absoLUTEly. That, and overpoliteness. I think that's the disadvantage of sticking to our principles... still, I like that those are our principles, you know? But there's taking it too far. I'm agreeing with you, is what I'm saying, while simultaneously slapping myself on the back for being such a fine upstanding citizen*.

Man, my head is a fucked-up place to be. I'm glad we have Al Franken on our side, is what I'm saying. (Or had -- I'm not sure Franken-D will be able to be quite so "lying liars telling lies" as Franken the comedian was.)

All of which is to say, I don't want to do my grading. Save me!

(*See erikaj's point. Wow, am I ever the patron saint of trying to have it both ways.)

A lot of times, yeah. From a Baltimore political family, she probably learned that before she got her driver's license.ETA: Emily, yes, in theory, it's great that everybody gets a voice. I love this and believe in it, but not as much as I used to before going to meetings run by a hippie. We were always late, nobody was too crazy to give half an hour to, and the conservatives think we're punk-ass bitches.

I think Warren was chosen because he HAS moved on issuesm unlike most of the rest of his ilk. He became a vocal and active worker on behalf of AIDS sufferers and took the whole Evangelical movement to task for focusing on things like fighting gay rights rather than on poverty and the environment. Clearly, he is still hard right on a lot of issues, abortion and gay rights among them, but he IS a right-winger who has moved left in some substantial areas.

The thing is, he is still hard right in some incredibly important ways and that's a problem.