Political disagreement is different than hate speech. There are plenty of people on the political right who have not publically equated homosexuality with bestiality and abortion rights to the Holocaust. And it does a disservice to the many sane conservatives out there to imply that reaching across the aisle means bypassing them entirely in favor of the radical fringe.

So much this. Thank you for articulating it so well, Jessica.

True, Emily. I can't help feeling though that trying to accomodate everyone is why "we" get our butts kicked all the time. Because we don't want to say anything against anyone's culture even when it's filled with poison. But if that's the biggest gripe I ever have with him, I'll build a statue.

And I think that a lot of people attend them but don't agree with everything the pastor/church says. Which doesn't make Warren's bigotry *right,* but it makes me understand how people can see him as mainstream.

Yeah, definitely this. I know lots of people in the church who are bigoted, but I know lots who are really, truly not. And I know even more who would not be if they had a chance to get to know people.

I definitely don't agree with everything my church says, not even close.

I can't help feeling though that trying to accomodate everyone is why "we" get our butts kicked all the time.

Well, at least you can trust that Speaker Pelosi plays hardball.

I can't help feeling though that trying to accomodate everyone is why "we" get our butts kicked all the time.

Dude, absoLUTEly. That, and overpoliteness. I think that's the disadvantage of sticking to our principles... still, I like that those are our principles, you know? But there's taking it too far. I'm agreeing with you, is what I'm saying, while simultaneously slapping myself on the back for being such a fine upstanding citizen*.

Man, my head is a fucked-up place to be. I'm glad we have Al Franken on our side, is what I'm saying. (Or had -- I'm not sure Franken-D will be able to be quite so "lying liars telling lies" as Franken the comedian was.)

All of which is to say, I don't want to do my grading. Save me!

(*See erikaj's point. Wow, am I ever the patron saint of trying to have it both ways.)

A lot of times, yeah. From a Baltimore political family, she probably learned that before she got her driver's license.ETA: Emily, yes, in theory, it's great that everybody gets a voice. I love this and believe in it, but not as much as I used to before going to meetings run by a hippie. We were always late, nobody was too crazy to give half an hour to, and the conservatives think we're punk-ass bitches.

I think Warren was chosen because he HAS moved on issuesm unlike most of the rest of his ilk. He became a vocal and active worker on behalf of AIDS sufferers and took the whole Evangelical movement to task for focusing on things like fighting gay rights rather than on poverty and the environment. Clearly, he is still hard right on a lot of issues, abortion and gay rights among them, but he IS a right-winger who has moved left in some substantial areas.

The thing is, he is still hard right in some incredibly important ways and that's a problem.

Saddleback Church is enormous, though, isn't it? Isn't he already mainstreamed?

I actually met some people who attended Saddleback when I was on the cruise. they were actually very nice people and not crazy or evangelical. In their church, there's a "life sized" screen in the front of the church and they watch the Warren sermon in simulcast. This, to me, kind of defeats the purpose. Might as well stay at home and watch the 700 Club.

I can tell you that Warren *is* considered very liberal by my friends/family who attend a non-denominatal church. Actually, they don't attend the church, they run it. My uncle's ex-wife (who raised me *after* their divorce, and is an example of everything I like about Christianity - the part about love and really doing well unto others), who is a missionary in Africa, comes from a family of pastors. Anyway, I bring it up because though Warren has made some asinine and hateful comparisons about abortion and homosexuality, he's widely regarded as "liberal" because of his stance on global environmental issues and his work against the spreading of AIDS.

I'm an avowed Atheist, and I was honored to serve as Best Person when my cousin Buffy married her wife over Labor Day. I would rather not have the Inauguration (or court proceedings or my money) mention god at all but I realize that most Americans do not feel that way.

We were talking about Neti pots here, right? I just tried one, and it did make my sinuses feel a whole lot better, but I also kept getting some of the salt water dripping down into the back of my throat. Any way to prevent this? I was also getting some (gross font) bloody stuff coming out, but since part of the reason I started using it was that I was getting nosebleeds, I figure that's maybe to be expected.