So... I was arguing with D about Rick Warren (ftr, D doesn't support Warren, he only believes in trusting Obama). I went on line for fuel for my fire and I found out that the man who gave the invocation at tonight's concert is an openly gay episcopal bishop and (although HBO edited his words out of their broadcasts) I found a transcript of them here and I have to share.

Yeah, the invocation was actually the main reason I wanted to go. I ended up having to strain to hear it, because the speakers weren't really working too well and everyone was still milling around trying to find a place to see the screen, so thanks for the transcript link.

I'm not a fan of Rick Warren either, and I don't think just trusting Obama is the right response either (though I do trust Obama in a way I don't trust most other politicians), but engagement has to start somewhere. And we have to engage people like Warren, as abhorant as I find his views. Otherwise we're left with nothing but total war, with everyone abhoring everyone else. Refusing to engage that which we disagree with doesn't help anybody.

I agree that we need to engage people, even people like Warren, but not here, not like this. Giving someone who preaches hate and bigotry on his level prominence and tacit approval by including him in something as symbolically important as the inauguration is never going to seem anything but wrong to me.

Thank you for posting that, Laga. It was really, really lovely.

Giving someone ... his level prominence and tacit approval by including him in something as symbolically important as the inauguration is never going to seem anything but wrong to me.

My money says the exact same words are being spoken, by the far right, about the inclusion of Rev. Gene Robinson.

I would love to see him cast as Laurence for the movie version of His Majesty's Dragon.

Oh my bloody God, that is the best idea in the history of ever.

C'mon, Peter Jackson! Get your arse into gear and make the movie already!

Teppy - they're very enjoyable books, if you're fond of Master and Commander. Also, fwiw, Naomi Novik, the author, is one of the people behind the Organisation for Transformative Works and is better known to many fen via LJ and suchlike under another writing nom de guerre. Ahem. So there's that whole 'One of Us! One of Us! Published! Woohoo!' thing going on too. For me, at any rate. 'Cause she's definitely one of my favourite fannish creators, in both prose and vidding.

eta tangent:

My kids are busy rehearsing their Chinese New Year Assembly this week. I wrote a play script telling the story of why the 12 years got their name (and why there is no Year of the Cat. Or indeed Shark). Everyone has some lines. The kid playing the monkey? He says: "Go Monkey! Choose Monkey!" because I think that's hilarious. I somehow doubt there will be any other Buffy geeks in the audience, but I needed to share. (Later he says "Go Home! Choose Home!" Because I am easily amused.)

well, I hope it's enjoyable cheese.

The fromage was evident and enjoyable.

ND's situation is even a little bit easier, because from most Christians' perspective, Satanism is specifically antagonistic to their belief, even moreso than atheism. So it's a rough one to navigate.

While I understand how it appears this way it has not been my experience. I think it's that the idea of someone believing in no higher power at all is very threatening. Also, while the idea of Satanism being the antithesis of Christianity is there, atheism is more prevalent, and as such I think taken more seriously. It's tough. I have old friends that won't talk to me any more. Friends that were with me through thick and thin, but now are people that I just have a very difficult finding common ground with. I've also had some very tough things directed my way with attitudes. The idea that since I'm an atheist I'm amoral and unable to make any judgment about right and wrong.

Anyway, it's a topic for a a very long post.

It's often conflated with Satanism anyway.

It's tough. I have old friends that won't talk to me any more. Friends that were with me through thick and thin, but now are people that I just have a very difficult finding common ground with.

This. I had one very close friend (we still are and got past this) get very upset that another chose me as a god parent.

Also, we're supposed to shut up and not talk about being people who participate in society from a strictly secular humanistic standpoint.

I got in a huge argument with my husband, who is agnostic to the point of apathy, when I pointed out that the kid on Inside Sports saying it was ok that his coach was jewish because they both believe in god was a little offensive to me.

The idea that since I'm an atheist I'm amoral and unable to make any judgment about right and wrong.

This just slays me. The supposition that one can only have a moral framework within the context of being terrified of punishment by the flying spaghetti monster/other deity of one's choice. I think it belittles both people of faith and atheists.