It's often conflated with Satanism anyway.

It's tough. I have old friends that won't talk to me any more. Friends that were with me through thick and thin, but now are people that I just have a very difficult finding common ground with.

This. I had one very close friend (we still are and got past this) get very upset that another chose me as a god parent.

Also, we're supposed to shut up and not talk about being people who participate in society from a strictly secular humanistic standpoint.

I got in a huge argument with my husband, who is agnostic to the point of apathy, when I pointed out that the kid on Inside Sports saying it was ok that his coach was jewish because they both believe in god was a little offensive to me.

The idea that since I'm an atheist I'm amoral and unable to make any judgment about right and wrong.

This just slays me. The supposition that one can only have a moral framework within the context of being terrified of punishment by the flying spaghetti monster/other deity of one's choice. I think it belittles both people of faith and atheists.

The supposition that one can only have a moral framework within the context of being terrified of punishment by the flying spaghetti monster/other deity of one's choice. I think it belittles both people of faith and atheists.

Yes. This. In fact, the idea of being motivated to do good out of fear is absolutely repellent to me.

Also, while I'm hardly an atheist by any stretch, I have essentially been cut off from one of my old social circles, because I am now a very liberal Christian. As far as they're concerned, I'm not "really" Christian because I am in favor of gay rights, don't believe in the exclusivity of salvation, etc. There's only one friend I truly regret losing touch with, especially as I feel she is being pulled into the freakier aspect of the whole FAC thing.

Giving someone ... his level prominence and tacit approval by including him in something as symbolically important as the inauguration is never going to seem anything but wrong to me.

My money says the exact same words are being spoken, by the far right, about the inclusion of Rev. Gene Robinson.

Yes, this. Exactly.

And, to tie it in with the atheist conversation, I know people who are furious -- practically unhinged in a "please seek medication" way -- that the inauguration would even include any leader of any faith speaking publically. They would prefer no faith of any kind being tied to the inauguration or, indeed, any public official's public statements, ever.

So nobody wins. Some people are pissed at including Rick Warren, some people are pissed at including Gene Robinson, and other people are pissed at the mention of any god, in any capacity, at all.

Go America.

Well, as long as everyone is equally offended, that's as good as pleasing everyone, right?

Well, as long as everyone is equally offended, that's as good as pleasing everyone, right?

Seriously? That's what you think I meant?

I'm not saying that offending everyone is a good thing. I'm just pointing out that it's a no-win proposition.

Obama is a politician, first and foremost. Asking Rick Warren to be a part of the inauguration is simply politics. I don't doubt that for a second. As is asking Gene Robinson.

I, personally, think that Rick Warren is a bigoted troll who doesn't have the slightest understanding of what God is really about, and I hate that he's such a big part of the inauguration.

But I also understand *why* he is.

I'm just pointing out that it's a no-win proposition.

I completely agree. And I also agree that it's completely political. He's doing exactly what he said he would--bridging between the parties. I see Rick Warren is a huge part of that.

Quite frankly, I've been surprised that people have been so surprised of the choice. Disappointed? Upset? Angry? That I can see, but the surprise surprises me.

Giving someone ... his level prominence and tacit approval by including him in something as symbolically important as the inauguration is never going to seem anything but wrong to me.

My money says the exact same words are being spoken, by the far right, about the inclusion of Rev. Gene Robinson.

The difference being that Warren is a hate-monger and Robinson is not.

Obama is a politician, first and foremost. Asking Rick Warren to be a part of the inauguration is simply politics.

I think this is absolutely true, which doesn't make it okay with me. He'd rather cater to the right-wingers that didn't vote for him than the LGBT community that did. I don't have an issue with Obama engaging people like Rick Warren. I just think the timing of this sucks and makes me personally feel like a second-class citizen. Coming on the heels of Prop 8, it feels almost like an attack.

And now I try to go back to sleep. Total hot button issue for me. Sorry.

t edit Ooops. I missed GC's edit.

Deletia.

Coming on the heels of Prop 8, it feels almost like an attack.

I totally get that.

Total hot button issue for me. Sorry.

I also totally get that. I too will step away from the conversation.