The supposition that one can only have a moral framework within the context of being terrified of punishment by the flying spaghetti monster/other deity of one's choice. I think it belittles both people of faith and atheists.

Yes. This. In fact, the idea of being motivated to do good out of fear is absolutely repellent to me.

Also, while I'm hardly an atheist by any stretch, I have essentially been cut off from one of my old social circles, because I am now a very liberal Christian. As far as they're concerned, I'm not "really" Christian because I am in favor of gay rights, don't believe in the exclusivity of salvation, etc. There's only one friend I truly regret losing touch with, especially as I feel she is being pulled into the freakier aspect of the whole FAC thing.

Giving someone ... his level prominence and tacit approval by including him in something as symbolically important as the inauguration is never going to seem anything but wrong to me.

My money says the exact same words are being spoken, by the far right, about the inclusion of Rev. Gene Robinson.

Yes, this. Exactly.

And, to tie it in with the atheist conversation, I know people who are furious -- practically unhinged in a "please seek medication" way -- that the inauguration would even include any leader of any faith speaking publically. They would prefer no faith of any kind being tied to the inauguration or, indeed, any public official's public statements, ever.

So nobody wins. Some people are pissed at including Rick Warren, some people are pissed at including Gene Robinson, and other people are pissed at the mention of any god, in any capacity, at all.

Go America.

Well, as long as everyone is equally offended, that's as good as pleasing everyone, right?

Well, as long as everyone is equally offended, that's as good as pleasing everyone, right?

Seriously? That's what you think I meant?

I'm not saying that offending everyone is a good thing. I'm just pointing out that it's a no-win proposition.

Obama is a politician, first and foremost. Asking Rick Warren to be a part of the inauguration is simply politics. I don't doubt that for a second. As is asking Gene Robinson.

I, personally, think that Rick Warren is a bigoted troll who doesn't have the slightest understanding of what God is really about, and I hate that he's such a big part of the inauguration.

But I also understand *why* he is.

I'm just pointing out that it's a no-win proposition.

I completely agree. And I also agree that it's completely political. He's doing exactly what he said he would--bridging between the parties. I see Rick Warren is a huge part of that.

Quite frankly, I've been surprised that people have been so surprised of the choice. Disappointed? Upset? Angry? That I can see, but the surprise surprises me.

Giving someone ... his level prominence and tacit approval by including him in something as symbolically important as the inauguration is never going to seem anything but wrong to me.

My money says the exact same words are being spoken, by the far right, about the inclusion of Rev. Gene Robinson.

The difference being that Warren is a hate-monger and Robinson is not.

Obama is a politician, first and foremost. Asking Rick Warren to be a part of the inauguration is simply politics.

I think this is absolutely true, which doesn't make it okay with me. He'd rather cater to the right-wingers that didn't vote for him than the LGBT community that did. I don't have an issue with Obama engaging people like Rick Warren. I just think the timing of this sucks and makes me personally feel like a second-class citizen. Coming on the heels of Prop 8, it feels almost like an attack.

And now I try to go back to sleep. Total hot button issue for me. Sorry.

t edit Ooops. I missed GC's edit.

Deletia.

Coming on the heels of Prop 8, it feels almost like an attack.

I totally get that.

Total hot button issue for me. Sorry.

I also totally get that. I too will step away from the conversation.

Not much to contribute, just saying hi. It's a work day today, which means grading my finals and finalizing my grades. (Seriously. Not just for the funny wordplay.) And since I give short-answer tests rather than multiple choice (why, god, why do I do that?), I may be in here from time to time when I get frustrated. I've graded all the really right/really wrong answers and now I have to do the "eh... sort of, but you missed the point" ones.

Good luck, Em!