First, please do not put me in the position of *defending* the claim the ethics don't matter, they do. Moreover, because I don't really share the mindset, I don't think I can present a fully articulated argument for why ethics don't matter. But I can present some of the evidence that is seen to support that argument.

First is Sean's point that ethics are sometimes seen as an impediment to success or wealth or whatever. The Kantian concept that ethics are disinterested can be hard for some to see. For some, a choice that is legal but unethical is completely defensible.

I have read some papers in which students approach ethical dilemmas more as PR challenges than anything else: ethics as spin. And there's lots of evidence to support this version of ethics. A rather egregious example that occurs to me is McClellan saying that while the Bush has been manipulative and deliberately deceptive, he hasn't lied (because presumably the last would be unethical and the former two somehow aren't).

Oh, and there's bonny's point above. If lying again and again gets you what you want? The choice to stop lying might well seem to be the sucker bet.

I believe that small flaws often grow into something much bigger. IOW, if a ROTC cadet thinks cheating is no big deal, I tremble to think what he'll believe is OK by the time he's a colonel or a general.

This is my thinking! If the kid lies about nothing, won't he lie about everything?

The 'what goes around comes around' thing did get proven by a fellow in my high school class who was a smarmy jerk who paid/intimidated people into doing his work for him but who LOOKED like the right stuff. He did me a particular wrong in our senior year and the promised consequence was never meted out.

He went to West Point with much fanfare. Two weeks later, he was kicked out for cheating. Career over.

The adviser who told me the story was gleeful. I thought, Why, if you all 'knew this was coming', why didn't you try to stop him before it got out of hand?

I guess it was easier to let the military folks, who actually take having a code seriously, do the dirty work.

Just to clear up my end:

First, please do not put me in the position of *defending* the claim the ethics don't matter, they do.

That wasn't my intent. Sorry if it came off that way. I only asked you to help me understand the mindset, because you said you had some understanding of it.

I'm trying to get into the mindset myself, to understand. I do find it useful to try and get inside mindsets I don't agree with, if for no other reason than to at least try to present a more substantive argument than, "Well, you're a big doodoo head." (I don't always succeed)

McClellan saying that while the Bush has been manipulative and deliberately deceptive, he hasn't lied (because presumably the last would be unethical and the former two somehow aren't).

Right!

Morality has become less about doing what is right because that gives one a sense of worth and satisfaction and more a pr puzzle to work out and 'win' with.

The faux-son tried to make an argument that he never actually lied to ME (rubbish), therefore, his deceptive behavior and manipulation should not upset me.

Whuh?

If I care about you and you are being a dick, that bothers me. You claiming that you have never 'meant' to hurt me (and again I say rubbish) cannot remove the stink of immorality!

How is it that he doesn't get that?

NO worries, Sean. I didn't think it was your intent. It's just your post was followed by a few others... and tone started to sound like "please tell us of this alien mindset" and I realized that I didn't have the bandwidth to play devil's advocate on this one.

A friend went to a party with 'prominent Republicans' after being invited by a high profile author.

She was giddy with the opportunity, which I totally understand. But when I asked her what she might say to Carl Rove, she went blank.

To be fair, I'm not sure what I would say either. But I don't think I could not say something...however civil I might try to be in honor the the host and assembled innocent bystanders.

I don't fantasize that morality is one size fits all, or that mine is superior, but seriously...What DO you say to the anti-christ?

I realized that I didn't have the bandwidth to play devil's advocate on this one.

Now that's a mindset I can easily understand these days.

I think for many people, you do what is right for your own sense of self-worth. bonny, for the jerk in high school, it might have been that the teachers were pressured to pass him on for a variety of reasons.

And Joe's point about wanting to train people who might lead his own daughter is a good one. Acting as though your own loved ones would be directly affected is a good attitude.

On the bright side, a friend's nephew is a career Marine, and she once told me about how he was worried about being able to bring his men home safely, and what he could do to keep them as safe as possible in Iraq. He was less worried about his own safety than his men's.

What DO you say to the anti-christ?

Well... whatever you say, try to avoid hyperbole.