because role play is conceived as a narrative as opposed to as a series of discrete moves, so the desire for "do-over" is more strongly tied to the player's overall subjective experience of the game

not an ass-answer at all.

We moved on to a signal if you were not talking "in character". We'd put a hand on our head. It was understood that if you didn't have your hand on your head when you spoke, it was assumed to be "in character" and consequences could be suffered.

I did a LARP one time where to speak out of character, you had to make moose antlers with your hands.

There's also action points. Spend an action point and reroll.

Our GM's being a little lenient since we just started 4th edition. Last night I kept forgetting I got a +1 for being bloodied and if it made a difference and I remembered before the next player rolled he'd let me take it.

Well, yeah, alot of systems have "do-overs" built into the rules. As long as you pay for them somehow...action points, plot points, karma points...I got no problem with it.

And when somebody is unfamiliar with the rules and are giving themselves short shrift as a consequence, sure I'll let 'em re-roll.

If it's a matter of "I wanna do something unbelievably fucktarded", sorry ass-munch, you eat the damage.

We moved on to a signal if you were not talking "in character". We'd put a hand on our head. It was understood that if you didn't have your hand on your head when you spoke, it was assumed to be "in character" and consequences could be suffered.

We have something similar to address suggestions from the rest of the party. As in:

Player 1: "Dude, ask him about the macguffin!"
Player 2 (or DM): "Hey, you aren't there."
Player 1: (puts both hands to forehead with forefingers extended and wiggles forefingers like antennae) "Dude, ask him about the macguffin!"

because role play is conceived as a narrative as opposed to as a series of discrete moves, so the desire for "do-over" is more strongly tied to the player's overall subjective experience of the game

I would tend to agree, except I'm now wondering if it's just a more basic thing: Computers can manage take-backsies + computer games were originally largely outgrowths of D&D + computers can't manage DM judgment calls = unpredictable game encounters --> go back to last save.

And because many of the new PnP players I meet have a lot more experience with computer games, they bring the expectation for a do-over to the gaming table.

But here's another thought: I also know a few gamers who do PnP RPGs (and things like WoW) as an outlet for their real-life frustrations. They want to be the biggest baddest killers around, and mouth off to everyone in a way they can't in real life. Which, if the game is not designed for the PCs to be mouthy bullies, gets them into trouble. So, bewildered, they wonder why they are having to live with the consequences even in a game. (My answer is usually...it's a GAME. It really is a place to mouth off and suffer consequences, without losing your ability to pay rent.)

I agree on the technical side of take-backsies vs. judgement calls -- but even in a computer context, reverting to a save feels different from a ctrl-z, somehow. Probably somewhere in between, or some of both, or something.

My answer is usually...it's a GAME. It really is a place to mouth off and suffer consequences, without losing your ability to pay rent.

Dude, yeah? Play isn't practicing no consequences, it's practicing taking consequences.

But here's another thought: I also know a few gamers who do PnP RPGs (and things like WoW) as an outlet for their real-life frustrations. They want to be the biggest baddest killers around, and mouth off to everyone in a way they can't in real life. Which, if the game is not designed for the PCs to be mouthy bullies, gets them into trouble. So, bewildered, they wonder why they are having to live with the consequences even in a game.

I've had many players like this. My response to their petulant "But WHY? It's not like it's REAL!" whining is "You're detracting from the enjoyment of the other players. Thus, I must punish you.

Plus, you're being a dickweed. See above, re: Thus."

"You're detracting from the enjoyment of the other players. Thus, I must punish you.

Plus, you're being a dickweed. See above, re: Thus."

It would be so great to be able to use this at meetings.

Isn't that rather a lot of 'splaining when you could just say, "A flaming cow falls from the sky!"

"A flaming cow falls from the sky!"

would not work at meetings.