I'm not sat thinking "WOW, RAPE IS AWESOME! I WANT THAT FOR XMAS!"

I may be mistaken, but I don't think anyone was suggesting that you (or the the straight fanboys in general, to whom the Network seems to be eagerly appealing with their alterations of Joss's original premise) were doing that. I think the issue is more whether you are actively sitting there thinking "FUCK! RAPE IS TERRIBLE! I WANT THAT TO STOP!" Or if the (straight male) viewer is being distracted from that visceral squick by the sight of Eliza's fine ass and the exciting action sequences.

I think perhaps there's a bit of a disconnect in terms of empathy/objectification going on here, which is entirely understandable, because it's difficult to think clearly with the big head when one's libido is engaged.

Point - hot though I consider Eliza, I think I'd probably still be primarily empathising with her, rather than thinking 'Mmm, salty goodness' just on the basis of shared gender.

But if it was some hot male eyecandy, such as, say, Jensen Ackles (what? don't look at me like that!) who was portraying the Active being demeaned, manipulated and roofied into thinking that he loved getting fucked up the ass by random strangers, then I think you and I might possibly have different responses. Or not - maybe it would ping you just the same. But I'm pretty sure that even though my intellect would be going 'So, abuse - that's terrible! His Free Will is pastede on! That poor hot guy!', my lizard brain would be all over it like a rash, and then some. Because it can be difficult to be the best human being one should be, when your particular kink buttons are being catered to.

I get that Eliza had a deal with Fox, and that she and they were up for her being in a sexy show looking sexy. But I think it is distinctly problematic that they've elected to have that show be one in which she's being repeatedly raped. And more problematic that they want to crank up the titillating aspects of this, and downplay any pesky moral and ethical qualms that might make a guy's dick droop and move his hand to the remote.

eta

Of course, the Ackles-laden alternative would not be a precise parallel, because this isn't context-free. I'm put in mind of something I read of Paul Bettany's lately...aha:

Recalling once attending a photo-shoot with [his wife, Jennifer] Connelly where she was asked to wear just a bra: "And she said, 'No, no, not gonna do it,' and so they asked her to wear a man's dinner jacket. And I'm thinking, 'How many times have I seen this, you unimaginative bastards?' So she does it, and then the magazine cover gets pulled, 'cos she wouldn't wear the bra. Because that's what's men's magazines that are sort of soft porn want. They're more insidious than porn magazines."

On how Hollywood treats its female actors: "In general it's so much more of an objectification. You know the drill, it's a true story. For instance, if I am being asked to have a picture taken on the cover of a magazine, maybe they're wanting me to look sexy, maybe they're wanting me to look rugged, maybe they're wanting me to look fragile. With a woman, they want you to look available, essentially, that you are in some way inviting. And that's just fucking depressing."

If you don't like it, don't watch ita.

I'm irritated after the fact, Kevin, because I just watched the episode and got caught up in the thread, but we're on this board because we admire Joss's work. That doesn't mean we have to agree with his artistic choices and that doesn't keep us from dissecting things. That's what we do.

Also, I'm a fan of police procedurals, but that doesn't mean I'm a fan of crime.

As far as Dollhouse goes, I wish they had stayed away from sex until the premise was better established. It's either rape or really squicky prostitution. I can think of reasons why someone might want to use an anonymous expert with no memory. A kidnapping expert who wouldn't remember the kidnapping would help ensure it would remain secret. You could need a safecracker with no police record, an antiquities expert or a killer for hire.

The whole rock climbing thing bothered me. No matter how fit they keep them, I don't know how they could have the right muscle strength for all types of sports. No matter what her brain knew, it couldn't give her muscles she didn't have. Also, wouldn't her hands have looked more like raw hamburger? She seems to have retained her manicure.

She seems to have retained her manicure.

Ironically, that was the one thing I noticed in the last bit was that I thought her knuckles looked all barked up. Maybe my brain filled that in.

eta: but, yeah. with you on all the rest...is what I meant to say.

Ironically, that was the one thing I noticed in the last bit was that I thought her knuckles looked all barked up. Maybe my brain filled that in.

No, I noticed it too.

And my god, an erasable hit-woman. No muss, no fuss, no troublesome RICO predicates...what? Maybe I've said too much. But I want one. And they'd make awesome assistants, for people like me or for perverse rich folks who hate confidentiality agreements.

Her knuckles were slightly barked, but that was it. Maybe I'm sensitive because my hands are beat up worse than that most of the time.

I can't reach into a Pringles can without messing up my cuticles.

I really liked how everything was already intersecting and connecting, how we start the story with Echo and not Caroline, and Caroline is a much bigger mystery and more tantalizingly so. How the progression of Echos identity was already starting. The threads were already woven and the premise and overarching plot were already moving.

Yeah, that script was a much better introduction to the characters and the concept than "Ghost" was.

Unless he makes an overt move, I don't think I would shoot, otherwise it would feel like I could have done something else than kill him.

Huh. If someone's had sex with me and then started trying to kill me by chasing me with a bow and arrow, my instinct is to stop the fucker, forget the talking.

Admittedly, I have spent a lot of years yelling at people in horror movies, and it's easy to talk big when I'm not the situation.

As soon as I saw that they were rock-climbing, I was waiting for Suela's critique.

I can't reach into a Pringles can without messing up my cuticles.

Okay, that made me guffaw.