I can't think of a pleasing reason for both of them to have happened. Just one points cleanly to a fifth cylon. Two is too messy for me.

This was exactly my thought, which is what led to the notion that they are all Cyousins.

The idea of Saul and Ellen being the Lords of Kobol made me gaffaw, Jessica. Good one!

I think she was rebuilt by the ancient Cylons and sent forward in time back to the nebula. Does that make her a Cylon? Maybe. I don't know yet.

I also want to know how Ellen being "the fifth" has any real meaning anymore, given that we now know of potentially billions of Cylon models on ancient Earth. (Since the people we saw in the flower market flashback were just random extras, and not recongizable Cylons.)

Ooh, forgot about the Cavils.

Also, it's seeming that the final five are different and separate from the seven, and yet the seven (again, working with way dusty memories here) seemed to know of them as far as "there used to be twelve of us but we were made to forget five of us". I'm of course assuming that the seven were fairly recent creations.

Now, how come there were Cylons millenia ago I don't get.

They went back in time to kill John Connor. It is possible I am confused.

My sister watched the show with me last night for the first time. When she saw in the opening that Olmos was in the cast she said she always liked him. She wasn't disappointed. She did wonder if it was always so depressing. Well, you sure aren't going to watch it for the funny good times, but last night was up there on the pain meter.

I don't know where they are headed with the new revelations, but I am certainly going along for the ride.

Also, it's seeming that the final five are different and separate from the seven, and yet the seven (again, working with way dusty memories here) seemed to know of them as far as "there used to be twelve of us but we were made to forget five of us". I'm of course assuming that the seven were fairly recent creations.

No, that's occurred to me, too, and I'm certain it's significant.

It seems that, 4,000-odd years ago, on Kobol, there were humans and Cylons. The Cylons left for Earth.

2,000 odd years ago, Earth was populated by Cylons, who nuked themselves to death. The implication being that we, sitting here watching this on TV, are Cylons. Most of us, of course, think of ourselves as human. Except maybe Dick Cheney. (I only have a few days left to spend my Dick Cheney jokes.)

We don't know what happened afterward. At least five Cylons from this time were able to leave. Reincarnation hubs? Seems possible. We don't know where they've been all this time.

Then, 70 odd years ago, humanity created Cylons again, not knowing that "all of this has happened before." War breaks out, ending forty years ago when the Cylons leave. Again. We have no idea whether or not the new Cylons know anything about the old Cylons.

Sometime in all this, the five arrive from wherever they've been. We don't know exactly when this happened -- the earliest instance we have of a Cylon infiltration is when Adama met Tigh, about 30 years ago.

It seems likely that the five made contact with the "new" Cylons beforehand, though, although it's unclear whether this happened in person or not. After all, the Cylons knew there were 12 models, even if they didn't immediately know who the five were, and were forbidden to speak of them at all. And the five seem sincere in their being unaware of their nature until recently.

Four years ago (or whatever it is in show time) the Cylons return, able to look like humans. They nuke the 12 planets. Shortly thereafter, the fleet learn of the existence of Cylons that look like humans.

So the questions are, as I see them:

1.) Did the Five have something to do with the creation of the "skinjobs." Did they bring technology from Earth that made that leap possible?

2.) If Earth was populated by Cylons, what are those from the other 12 Colonies. It seems the question isn't "What is a Cylon," but rather, "What is a human?"

3.) We were told, way back when, in the opening credits, that the Cylons had a plan. Which Cylons?

4.) How does Starbuck figure into all of this? Was she resurrected? If so, is she a Cylon, or can humans be resurrected, too, perhaps if it's arranged in advance? And if that's the case, then the line between human and Cylon narrows even more.

5. What is the significance of Hera and the other Cylon offspring?

The mind spins.

Did the Five have something to do with the creation of the "skinjobs." Did they bring technology from Earth that made that leap possible?

This could explain things to my brain more than anything else so far, but then I wonder: who made the five forget they were 2000+ years old (and cylons)? And who made the 7 think they were part of 12?

How does Starbuck figure into all of this? Was she resurrected? If so, is she a Cylon, or can humans be resurrected, too, perhaps if it's arranged in advance?

I could buy that there is a tech on/near Cylon Earth that reincarnates "people", downloads them, clones them, whatev. I can even get behind this tech not distinguishing between machine (viper) and organic (human/cylon), but dogtags, wedding ring and clothes?

I sincerely hope that time travel or alternate dimension aren't involved, but right now it makes the most sense to me (in a Stargate universe sort of way.)

Yes, mind spins.

Do we know that Ellen is the 5th? It isn't like Saul hasn't had previous visions of her.

Starbuck remains a complete mystery. I'd hope for a cloning answer over a time travel answer.

I'm still hoping that Ellen is an aged Six, and that the fifth is yet to be truly revealed. Except Ron Moore tells me otherwise.

leftover pizza.

found this interesting over at TWoP [link] :

As someone else pointed out, the Earth holocaust happened around the same time that Kobol's civilization self destructed, or better yet, fled for the 12 colonies.

So here's my thoughts on that: maybe the humans and cylons originated on Kobol. They had a war 3600 years ago that resulted in the Cylon exile, or at least in the exile of the original cylons. The humans were not happy having the cylons be out there, so they sent ships out to track the cylons, and when they found Earth, they blew the shit out of it. But the cylons worried about the possibility, so they created a resurrection hub (there were none before) outside of Earth where a few cylons could download to, as a survival mechanism.

Eventually, the 12 models re-awakened in the hub (their "one true god" perhaps?), and were tasked with deciding what to do next. Seven of them were out for blood, whereas five wanted to seek out the humans, to make peace with them, and maybe to live with them again. The five lost the vote, and refused to go with the others. They struck their own path, and the seven were so pissed about it that they agreed to deny their existence by erasing their own memories, not just of the five, but of having lived on Earth for good measure. The seven traveled to Kobol with the non-human models, to lay siege to the planet.

The humans decided they had no choice but to become exiles themselves. The seven were pissed, but decided they would hunt the humans for as long as it took. So they worked on resurrection technology so powerful that it could span most of the universe, so they could hunt the humans forever if that's what was called.

The humans hid their tracks for many centuries, but there was a problem. Feeling shame over what had transpired, perhaps recognizing the error of their ways, they created a whole cover story about a lost colony, and how a cataclysm had caused their diaspora. Over time they also forgot that they were capable to create machines with self-awareness, who refused to do their bidding. They created a new set of cylons, the new non-human models. Meanwhile the five managed to track down the humans while the cylon war was going on. They decided that it would be too risky to approach the humans in the current climate, so they too elected to erase their own memories, so that they could live alongside the humans without revealing their secret (you can't reveal what you don't know).

The new cylons ran into the seven at the end of the war. This new development led them to leave the humans (with the humans interpreting it as a retreat, whereas the cylons were just regrouping). The seven allied with the non-human models of the 12 colonies. They managed to also create controls to subdue some of the models to their will (the collars that the Baseship Six took off from the Centurions when the remaining six started infighting). 50 years later, they laid siege to the 12 colonies, with their only goal to do the same to the humans as had been done to them on Earth. But 50,000 humans escaped the star system, and several more had survived on Caprica. The seven had not anticipated any of this, and it pissed them off. They also had been focused on revenge so much that they had forgotten how to live (see: not being able to couple and reproduce). They decided to track down the humans and enslave every last survivor, perhaps making them pay by succumbing to a fate worse than death (a.k.a. being experimented on, like Starbuck was on Caprica). Some of the seven (the Sixes, the Sharons) eventually realized all on their own that they needed to move on, to find a new quest. For a while, it was to make peace with the humans. That didn't last, so the Deannas came up with this new obsession to find and reconcile with the Five, which three other models later shared. Perhaps it was because unwittingly enough, following the humans meant retracing their path back to Earth, and (continued...)

( continues...)

it must have triggered some memories (like the nebula did for the Final Five). After this, who knows what the cylons will do? They are now at war with each other, which makes this outcome the worst they might have imagined long ago.

Quick thought that I just remembered: this may be neither here nor there, but regarding Starbuck, her embryo(s) was/were taken. Could that somehow play into her seeming cloning/resurection?