Who 4x13

A brilliant post from TWoP: http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=3174725&view=findpost&p=10518052 "I don't think I would have liked it if she had lived on as DoctorDonna, because as the name suggests, she would no longer be Donna. She'd be fierce as hell, and it would have been great to see what she was capable of, but it sort of suggests that she finally came into greatness only with another person implanted in her head. I hate the idea of people completing one another in romance novels, I would hate it if Donna Noble could only be great by virtue of having a Timelord (and not just any Timelord, having The Doctor) inside her head. Letting her die because she wanted to remain another person, this hybrid of her and The Doctor, would be wrong in this sense. And I do think that's why Donna didn't want to go back - because until she became the DoctorDonna and saved the world, she was unsure of her own self-worth. Like 10.5 realized, Donna, all this time, thought she was nothing special. Donna was willing to die because she thought her life finally had meaning, substance to it. She saved the world. She was finally special, and she was special because the Doctor was in her head (and not even in the usual way that people influence us - in a literal, his mind was in her head way!) making her, as Wilf said, "better". But Donna is special with or without the Doctor, and she needs to learn that. Sure wiping her memories effectively turned her into a different person than who she became, but at least the person The Doctor reverted her back to was 100% herself, with 100% power to become awesome again. Donna was brassy, loud and an inventive thinker even before she met the Doctor so she's obviously got something inside her own head that can achieve brilliance; if she does so in her new life sans Doctor, then the success is all hers, all her own doing. I like that."

Also, re 4x13, what of the show? I like Donna better than DoctorDonna, and a show with 1.5 Doctor and .5 companion just wouldn't be satisfying enough. Better this than a literal death (I'm still not over her dying in 12), and I did like meeting DoctorDonna.

I would like to have spent more time with an unsad Doctor 10.5, to see more of the Donna in him, now that I think about it.

ita, ITA, I really enjoyed what we saw of Doctor Donna, but that was quite enough, and a whole episode of that would have been incredibly annoying, let alone a whole season.

I just really... I wish that Donna had agreed to the mind-wipe, and gone quietly, so that it didn't come off as the Doctor forcing something on her. I won't say "rape" or violation, but for a man who is willing to give a choice to universally genocidal Daleks, for a guy who wants to talk things through with murderous enemies, couldn't he have talked Donna down for another few more moments, and let her come to an acceptance. THAT would have been awesome. Shit, Donna could have said, "You were fantastic . . . And you know what? So was I!" Or not. The outcome was awful enough without having the act be so aggressive.

I also would have loved to see more of 10.5, not just because I found him quite fascinating and lacking in agency at the end, but also to see Rose find out she's stuck with Donna's personality. Weee!

I really want to watch season one now and compare 10.5's mannerisms to 9's. He's got the jumper, but I'm wondering if the stillness was a Chris Eccleston thing as well.

Julie, that's a great post, and it makes a very good point. It's along the lines of some things I was thinking myself.

DW 4x13: Anyone catch the reference to Eve Myles being in "The Unquiet Dead"?

yup!

Jon, I figured that's as much explanation as we'll ever get, which is kinda disappointing, as I was hoping the connection would play out on Torchwood in the future. But, still, nice meta moment.

Jon,

I caught as much as I thought I could without going back and watching every episode to figure out what that was in reference to. I'm still not entirely sure.

DW 4x13: Anyone catch the reference to

I thought it was a natural enough moment the way it was. Both the Doctor and Rose, upon seeing her, at the same time together could only but go "woah!"

Torque, she played the servant at the funeral parlor who sacrificed herself to save Charles Dickens, Nine, and Rose in Season 1.

After exile to the ass-end of beyond for the weekend, I finally caught up with DW 4.13:

Donna, Doctor!Donna, so. frigging. awesome. Along with 10.5. I could watch an entire season of that. Alas, won't happen. I cried huge, schmoopy tears and my mascara ran all over the place when he wiped her memories. And when he went back into the kitchen to say good-bye and she just dismisses him with a "whatever" kind of throwaway. I get this feeling, though, that her mother will let her know she is special, even if she can't say why. And this Donna will be something special.

Wilf, I love you, man. Wilf cried, I cried.

Rose, could that chick get more memememe, let me stomp my foot? She got her 10(.5), now kiss him, shut up and go away. Sorry, I have Rose issues. Didn't cry for Rose.

Doctor, I wanted more from him. He was too damn quiet when Davros was taunting him. That is very un-Doctorlike. He doesn't give up and that's what it felt like. Not happy at all about the way he wiped Donna's memories. I would rather he let her come to the decisions herself, because she would have. OTOH, though, it almost felt like he did it that way because he was punishing himself by doing it. He knew he was responsible and she would never know it, but he would always remember. She wouldn't feel violated, so he had to feel that for her. I'm a little peeved with him, though, that he felt he had to stick 10.5 in the parallel universe, because "he commited genocide." Yah, think? He's you! The Doctor really hates himself. I cried more.

And, Doctor 10.5. The Ood told the Doctor everything must end, that his song would end, too. And so it will. 10.5 is human. And, he has Rose. Both what he wanted and what he may never be able to have if she doesn't get over herself. I feel more sorry for him than I do 10. 10 has the hope of finding new companions at some time. 10.5 is stuck with Rose. I really, really cried over that!