Can't drink, smoke, diddle my willy. Doesn't leave much to do other than watch you blokes stumble around playing Agatha Christie.

Spike ,'The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco'


Boxed Set, Vol. V: Just a Hint of Denial and a Dash of Retcon  

A topic for the discussion of Doctor Who, Arrow, and The Flash. Beware possible invasions of iZombie, Sleepy Hollow, or pretty much any other "genre" (read: sci fi, superhero, or fantasy) show that captures our fancy. Expect adult content and discussion of the Big Gay Sex.

Marvel superheroes are discussed over at the MCU thread.

Whitefont all unaired in the U.S. ep discussion, identifying it as such, and including the show and ep title in blackfont.

Blackfont is allowed after the show has aired on the east coast.

This is NOT a general TV discussion thread.


§ ita § - Aug 29, 2012 12:46:33 pm PDT #20923 of 30001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

This telling of it seems to be a woman falling in love with the Hulk. I'd have to watch it play out before I come to the conclusion that she's going to love the monster right out of him.

Given that his beast side started off by saving her life when she was a child I'm not getting the same blanket endorsement of dangerous relationships that you are seeing.

I've never been overly interested in the story, and I've never watched the Disney film, so I can't comment on its particular interpretation, but I'd, evidently too innocently, inferred it was a message about beauty being more than skin deep, since the fairy tale I read didn't have the Beast as violent--he was very nice and generous, just ugly.

Is there a Grimm version where his actions are ugly too?


Juliebird - Aug 29, 2012 12:53:45 pm PDT #20924 of 30001
I am the fly who dreams of the spider

The story I remember is that he got cursed for being shallow or prideful or something to do with vanity, but that he'd never been a mean or violent person, although he did get cranky and bellowy with Beauty's dad and scared him, and I think deliberately tried to scare Beauty, but my memory is that was almost a symptom of being alone and desocialized and also trying to keep people at a continued emotional distance, and when it doesn't work, gives up the angry act?


Zenkitty - Aug 29, 2012 1:11:14 pm PDT #20925 of 30001
Every now and then, I think I might actually be a little odd.

Juliebird, yes, the story as I remember it was that the prince was not a cruel or violent man, just prideful and vain, and was turned into a Beast for his arrogance, and he got over himself when Beauty wouldn't put up with any of his crap.

I dunno about the new version. I'll probably give it a try. It's my favorite fairy tale.


§ ita § - Aug 29, 2012 1:24:09 pm PDT #20926 of 30001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

He threatened to kill the father for trespassing, but he didn't seem to coerce anyone into anything else, and when Beauty is turning him down, it's because she loves him as a friend.

It's kind of weird, because she seems to agree to everything, without much duress going on, since there's no penalty exacted for not complying.

He gets turned back into a human when someone truly loves him despite his ugliness.

There are a shitload of problematic stories, but the source of this never struck me as one.


Vonnie K - Aug 29, 2012 2:20:54 pm PDT #20927 of 30001
Kiss me, my girl, before I'm sick.

The story itself and its interpretations in popular media are exactly as you describe. The Beast is a gentle monster, and after the initial hint of menace, there is no question that he is of danger to Belle. But fairy tale characters are archetypes, and as such they are reinvented and reinterpreted and the archetypes tend to work their way into our collective psyche.

Of course as a whole, it's a lovely story about redemption and healing power of love. But there are facets of the story I find rather disturbing. After all, Belle IS brought to the castle, if not against her will, under coercion. The Beast asks her to marry her, over and over again. She says no, over and over again, until she says yes. It IS about the power of love to transform the beloved, which is of course incredibly romantic (I am very susceptible to it myself) but in real life application, damaged, dangerous men often cannot be made whole just from the love of a good woman, no matter what millions of volume of romances say. I am not talking specifically about the original fairy tale (or this particular WB incarnation of the story) per se, but the pervasive cultural impact a trope like that can have over time.

On the flip side of it, the visceral effect of the story is not possible without the element of danger and the creepiness, I think. Fairy tales are ALL about sex and violence.


le nubian - Aug 29, 2012 2:29:36 pm PDT #20928 of 30001
"And to be clear, I am the hell. And the high water."

right, but isn't BATB considered an early "feminist" fairy tale because she is the one who did the acting and the choosing? Yes, she was in a tough set of circumstances, but rather than Sleeping Beauty (letting things happen to her), she is the one with the choice.


Typo Boy - Aug 29, 2012 2:32:14 pm PDT #20929 of 30001
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

Neither Belle nor her father knows she won't be killed when she goes to the castle (at least not in the pre-Disney version.) She willingly goes to the castle probably to die in place of her father. And her father lets her. It does not turn out that way, but neither she nor her father know that when the father accepts her sacrifice.


§ ita § - Aug 29, 2012 2:35:58 pm PDT #20930 of 30001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

It seems there is that problematic aspect to some incarnations of the story, but it's not inherent, and it wasn't in the original, nor the first televised version--am I correct?

Is your issue that you're a sucker for the versions where he is violent and coercive and harms or restricts her in some way? I'll check my version on my Nook when I'm not in the office, but there's asking and there's asking. It's not always an oppressive act.

Is the problem that it might encourage Nice Guys? Is he a Nice Guy?

As noted--I haven't seen the Disney version. That verion seems to be problematic--is that a retelling you enjoy? What are the other ones that make you uncomfortable?


§ ita § - Aug 29, 2012 2:37:03 pm PDT #20931 of 30001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

She willingly goes to the castle probably to die in place of her father

And? How does that make it a problem?


Typo Boy - Aug 29, 2012 2:43:15 pm PDT #20932 of 30001
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

Fathers are not supposed to let their children die for them. (Or Mothers)