A topic for the discussion of Doctor Who, Arrow, and The Flash. Beware possible invasions of iZombie, Sleepy Hollow, or pretty much any other "genre" (read: sci fi, superhero, or fantasy) show that captures our fancy. Expect adult content and discussion of the Big Gay Sex.
Marvel superheroes are discussed over at the MCU thread.
Whitefont all unaired in the U.S. ep discussion, identifying it as such, and including the show and ep title in blackfont.
Blackfont is allowed after the show has aired on the east coast.
This is NOT a general TV discussion thread.
The story itself and its interpretations in popular media are exactly as you describe. The Beast is a gentle monster, and after the initial hint of menace, there is no question that he is of danger to Belle. But fairy tale characters are archetypes, and as such they are reinvented and reinterpreted and the archetypes tend to work their way into our collective psyche.
Of course as a whole, it's a lovely story about redemption and healing power of love. But there are facets of the story I find rather disturbing. After all, Belle IS brought to the castle, if not against her will, under coercion. The Beast asks her to marry her, over and over again. She says no, over and over again, until she says yes. It IS about the power of love to transform the beloved, which is of course incredibly romantic (I am very susceptible to it myself) but in real life application, damaged, dangerous men often cannot be made whole just from the love of a good woman, no matter what millions of volume of romances say. I am not talking specifically about the original fairy tale (or this particular WB incarnation of the story) per se, but the pervasive cultural impact a trope like that can have over time.
On the flip side of it, the visceral effect of the story is not possible without the element of danger and the creepiness, I think. Fairy tales are ALL about sex and violence.
right, but isn't BATB considered an early "feminist" fairy tale because she is the one who did the acting and the choosing? Yes, she was in a tough set of circumstances, but rather than Sleeping Beauty (letting things happen to her), she is the one with the choice.
Neither Belle nor her father knows she won't be killed when she goes to the castle (at least not in the pre-Disney version.) She willingly goes to the castle probably to die in place of her father. And her father lets her. It does not turn out that way, but neither she nor her father know that when the father accepts her sacrifice.
It seems there is that problematic aspect to some incarnations of the story, but it's not inherent, and it wasn't in the original, nor the first televised version--am I correct?
Is your issue that you're a sucker for the versions where he is violent and coercive and harms or restricts her in some way? I'll check my version on my Nook when I'm not in the office, but there's asking and there's asking. It's not always an oppressive act.
Is the problem that it might encourage Nice Guys? Is he a Nice Guy?
As noted--I haven't seen the Disney version. That verion seems to be problematic--is that a retelling you enjoy? What are the other ones that make you uncomfortable?
She willingly goes to the castle probably to die in place of her father
And? How does that make it a problem?
Fathers are not supposed to let their children die for them. (Or Mothers)
My mum has The Uses of Enchantment, so I can't peak at what the psychoanalysis there was, but at least wikipedia lays out this pertinent plot point:
The next morning as the merchant is about to leave, he sees a rose garden and recalls that Belle had desired a rose. Upon picking the loveliest rose he finds, the merchant is confronted by a hideous 'Beast', which tells him that for taking his (the Beast's) most precious possession after accepting his hospitality, the merchant must die. The merchant begs to be set free, arguing that he had only picked the rose as a gift for his youngest daughter. The Beast agrees to let him give the rose to Belle, only if the merchant will return, or his daughter goes to the castle in his place.
The merchant is upset, but accepts this condition. The Beast sends him on his way, with jewels and fine clothes for his daughters, and stresses that Belle must come to the castle of her own accord. The merchant, upon arriving home, tries to hide the secret from Belle, but she pries it from him and willingly goes to the Beast's castle.
Fathers are not supposed to let their children die for them.
But that doesn't make the story problematic, it makes the daughter heroic. He didn't
let
her do anything. Give her some agency, nuh?
Right which is how I remember it. She willingly goes, but he lets her - both thinking she is going to die. He should insist on going. Also how does she pry it out of him if he is really willing to let her pry it out. He is sacrificing his daughter. She is a willing sacrifice, but he is willing to let her die for him. Not his fault that is not how it works out.
He should have agency too. He could insist on going.
