I would be a lot more measured in my response if this show didn't have a history of handling female characters really really badly. And like Plei and Juliana say, it wouldn't have taken much for them to actually acknowledge the wrong here.

As it is, one could easily walk away from this episode and not realize that Hope was raped for a month by the sympathetic geek. Thinking that what Wes did was kinda dodgy, but not actually bad.

I'm not gonna cut them slack just because the show usually deals in metaphor.

So rather than starting from zero with a new season we're watchdogging this particular show, more than new and returning shows which disrespect women with impunity right and left...because? Season three really fell down on race and gender issues?

Seems to me that their standard this season has been, compared to last, fairly high, with the exception of Yellow Fever--and I'm not discounting that may have been a fumble attempting to display character changes--and the lack of a punch to Wes' face by Hope.

My feeling was that the portion of the episode that didn't deal with Sam, Dean, and their respective issues was presented from Wes' point of view. And he saw her distress, and was guilt-stricken about it*, even before the brothers confronted him. True, she didn't get the payoff, but then nothing in the episode was presented from her POV. I may be insensitive and a bad feminist, but it didn't seem odd or wrong to me that Hope wasn't seen to extract revenge by the end of the episode. I have no doubt she will do. But that Wes was seen to understand and suffer remorse from his action seemed sufficient, from his POV.**

I'm from the school of parenting that feels ensuring a child understands and feels and carries the burden of having done a wrong thing (and makes reparation) teaches more than punishment imposed by an outside source. And that when someone has screwed up badly, you give points for improvement rather than pegging your expectations even higher; that feels like a sure formula for failure. *shrugs* Maybe I'm too kumbayah, I don't know.

ETA:*enough that I think he would have done something on his own to cancel the wish had the brothers not confronted him about it.

**I also get that it's a slippery slope not giving viewers the woman's POV. But this isn't a show focused on empowering women, it's never going to be. I agree wholeheartedly the writers desperately need to be more aware of attitudes and stances simply taken for granted, so that things don't wind up in scripts due to laziness or carelessness. But I can't ask this one show to serve the feminist cause above story and viewership and retaining sponsors.

I'll sing Kumbayah with you, Bev.

Thanks, Sail. We can sing while we sit with Amy. I meant to say that's where you'd find me, on her bench.

So rather than starting from zero with a new season we're watchdogging this particular show, more than new and returning shows which disrespect women with impunity right and left...because? Season three really fell down on race and gender issues?

I can't start from zero with new seasons - everything that has gone before informs my opinion in one way or the other. It's why it took me so long to see Season 5 of Angel - because S4 had so thoroughly lost me.

And for SPN - Season 3 pushed me far enough away that I'm second-guessing everything they're doing, I'm seeing the issues much more clearly and much faster than I did for S1 & S2, and I can't handwave everything away.

The only other show I watch is Sons Of Anarchy - and the race and gender issues are most definitely there, but they're real and they're dealt with in a mostly unflinching manner. No one gets a pass, and payback is usually shown.

What was Wes' reparation - undoing the wish? That's not reparation in my head - things still occurred, issues still need to be dealt with. But, it's not a show about that town, so we'll never see it, and I don't trust that the writers even thought about it.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, Bev, and I really did mostly like this ep. I just - I can't start from zero each season. I can't.

I can't start from zero with new seasons - everything that has gone before informs my opinion in one way or the other.

Okay, juliana, that's good for me to know, and obviously, you're not alone. It's not the way I operate, so I've been puzzled at people's expectations and quickness to jump on lapses, when I've been encouraged by improvement. Just a difference in processing. Thanks for telling me. I do occasionally need reminding that not everybody approaches things the right way. my way the same way.

(See, Raising the ADHD Child: Every day is a chance to start over; letting go of past failures)

for me, knowing things to be probably problematic and not thought through allows me to lower my expectations. I find this dulls the outrage down to an eyeroll. I mean, I know where their weak points are, what they just never quite do well.

It is the same mental reaction that allows me to keep company with aged and cringe worthy relatives.

allows me to keep company with aged and cringe worthy relatives

Ha! And, yes.

Count me on the skeevy side. Discovering that there are consequences from one's most heartfelt wishes was the message, but I think there should have been more emphasis on how your wishes screw with other people's lives, sometimes literally. I guess I would have been happier if his wishes had brought him a magical woman who didn't have a real life, like the Buffybot.

Also, I learned that if you can wish for anything, don't make it be a sandwich.

Also, I learned that if you can wish for anything, don't make it be a sandwich.

Especially one with extra jalapenos.

I find this dulls the outrage down to an eyeroll. I mean, I know where their weak points are, what they just never quite do well.

I just keep hoping, and then feeling like a kicked puppy when they come so close and then turn away. Puppy, I tell you.