Thanks, Sail. We can sing while we sit with Amy. I meant to say that's where you'd find me, on her bench.

So rather than starting from zero with a new season we're watchdogging this particular show, more than new and returning shows which disrespect women with impunity right and left...because? Season three really fell down on race and gender issues?

I can't start from zero with new seasons - everything that has gone before informs my opinion in one way or the other. It's why it took me so long to see Season 5 of Angel - because S4 had so thoroughly lost me.

And for SPN - Season 3 pushed me far enough away that I'm second-guessing everything they're doing, I'm seeing the issues much more clearly and much faster than I did for S1 & S2, and I can't handwave everything away.

The only other show I watch is Sons Of Anarchy - and the race and gender issues are most definitely there, but they're real and they're dealt with in a mostly unflinching manner. No one gets a pass, and payback is usually shown.

What was Wes' reparation - undoing the wish? That's not reparation in my head - things still occurred, issues still need to be dealt with. But, it's not a show about that town, so we'll never see it, and I don't trust that the writers even thought about it.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, Bev, and I really did mostly like this ep. I just - I can't start from zero each season. I can't.

I can't start from zero with new seasons - everything that has gone before informs my opinion in one way or the other.

Okay, juliana, that's good for me to know, and obviously, you're not alone. It's not the way I operate, so I've been puzzled at people's expectations and quickness to jump on lapses, when I've been encouraged by improvement. Just a difference in processing. Thanks for telling me. I do occasionally need reminding that not everybody approaches things the right way. my way the same way.

(See, Raising the ADHD Child: Every day is a chance to start over; letting go of past failures)

for me, knowing things to be probably problematic and not thought through allows me to lower my expectations. I find this dulls the outrage down to an eyeroll. I mean, I know where their weak points are, what they just never quite do well.

It is the same mental reaction that allows me to keep company with aged and cringe worthy relatives.

allows me to keep company with aged and cringe worthy relatives

Ha! And, yes.

Count me on the skeevy side. Discovering that there are consequences from one's most heartfelt wishes was the message, but I think there should have been more emphasis on how your wishes screw with other people's lives, sometimes literally. I guess I would have been happier if his wishes had brought him a magical woman who didn't have a real life, like the Buffybot.

Also, I learned that if you can wish for anything, don't make it be a sandwich.

Also, I learned that if you can wish for anything, don't make it be a sandwich.

Especially one with extra jalapenos.

I find this dulls the outrage down to an eyeroll. I mean, I know where their weak points are, what they just never quite do well.

I just keep hoping, and then feeling like a kicked puppy when they come so close and then turn away. Puppy, I tell you.

Especially one with extra jalapenos.

Are we abolutely certain that the wish had time to go sour, rather than it just being Dean's choice of topping that struck him down?

I just keep hoping, and then feeling like a kicked puppy when they come so close and then turn away. Puppy, I tell you.

Right. It may be heathier for you to think of them as idiot savants who get the emotional truth of family relationships, but fail the logical conclusion throw every time. It is for me!

It's weird, for me, at times, because I do call it out on things I see that bother me, but at the same time, I also (largely due to the reaction of non-viewers, oddly enough) get defensive about how other people take it. After Women's Work came out, a lot of the non-viewers who watched the vid kept making comments about how, "And that's why I'd never watch the show and don't understand people who do." Sometimes, the judgement's just something I've inferred, that was never really meant to be implied, but I can't really shake the feeling that my reaction, if I do not display suitable outrage, is being judged. It cuts both ways, as defensive people go on what feels like the offense, and get all up in arms about people who are up set, and then it just feels damned if I do, damned if I don't, and I wish the source was BETTER at things, just so that I didn't feel like every Thursday, I'm girding my loins if I wade into LJ.

I'm uncomfortable talking about it in fandom-at-large, this feeling. I'm not especially comfortable talking about it here, but as we're already sort of going down that path, I figured I might as well.

And, you know, it also feels like this is the first BIG fandom that's come along post-IBARW. There's been, in certain circles, a huge increase in both awareness and of calling out the texts when they veer in directions that make a body get twitchy. I don't remember this level of examination of other fandoms, although when I rewatch, I can see similar levels of ick. It just went largely uncommented.

Anyhow. My Mixed Emotions, Let Me Show Them To You.

Cindy I bet you are glad you don't have to recap this one if the regular recapper is coming back. I could watch an hour of JA and JP posturing for the camera, but I wouldn't want to have to describe it.

I do have to recap it, Austin. Demian needs a little more time off. We're going to take it week by week.

I didn't like the resolution of the love wish storyline, but I'm not sure I'm ready to interpret it as a rape story (mostly for selfish reasons -- I don't feel like being mad at the show, again).

I understand comparison, and even accept it. The wish is like a date rape drug, and Hope not remembering anything makes serves to highlight the similarities. I'm just not sure I will adopt it.

I can also interpret the wish to be a lie, rather than a drug. When I look at it that way, it stinks less.

And to pull out the big fan-wankery, it's not canon that the couple had sex. I mean, I would assume so, but that's an assumption. I never saw it on screen. Some couples wait.

Mostly, I'm just in line with Amy's way of thinking. It's hard to be though, because race, sex, and sexual orientation are this show's big blind spots.

Edit:

And, you know, it also feels like this is the first BIG fandom that's come along post-IBARW.

Plei, what's IBARW?